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Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

Colin Parkinson

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It looks like it can take the Merlin, just...

1l-image.jpg


 

dimsum

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Colin P said:
It looks like it can take the Merlin, just...

Which is fine when it's just for a short duration, but you'd need a hangar for anything long-term.
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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If you are going to go with something that big (yes, I said "big" - 2000 tons is almost the same size as the old Saint-Laurent's, who were 2400 tons, and at 90 meters, is only 21 meters shorter than the Saint-Laurent), I would go just as touch larger (98 meters - 2500 tons), and get a POVZEE. It has hangar and can be made to support a Cyclone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaiquer%C3%AD-class_patrol_boat
 

Kirkhill

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What do you think about the price-point vs capabilities?

529 MUSD / 3 = 176 MUSD
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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The price point is certainly reasonable for a hybrid ship like that (half mil specs/half civ spec).

The nice comparison is looking at it in relation to the old Saint-Laurent's:

UK River class Batch 2: l.o.a 90.5 m / width 13.5 m / g.t. 2000 t / sp. 25 Kts

Can. Saint-Laurent class: l.o.a. 111.6 m / width 12.8 m / g.t. 2240 t / sp 28.5 Kts

I am putting an interesting picture of a Saint-Laurent below.

You can see that, if you take the last 21 meters off the stern in your mind, it brings you a few meters aft of the flight deck, and then you can see the size of hangar sufficient to handle a Sea King. The Cyclones are in the same size class as the Sea kings.

On the River class batch 2, the flight deck - so to speak - goes all the way to the stern.

The Batch 2 are also slightly wider than the St-Laurent. Therefore, if you split the funnel of the Batch 2, you can easily fit a hangar big enough for the Cyclone and with enough room left on either side for the 24 foot Rhibs.

They could be very useful "little" ships for training, North American ops (read Caribbean, Arctic and local support to other government departments/agencies), and could be of good use in other foreign waters for things like anti-piracy ops.

I suspect you would have little trouble getting volunteers to man them: They have, for the crew, a very high level of habitability. the lowliest seamen have double berth cabin with ensuite heads and wash places; the officers and Chiefs and PO's have single cabins. Moreover, on ships like that with small crew, the crew is tighter as they are more familiar with one another than on larger crew, and they also get trusted with more responsibility faster than on larger crew.

I would take 8 of them for $1.6 b Canadian.
 

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Stoker

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Its been very busy for the MCDVs with all the upgrades they are receiving. As others have mentioned the ships are getting back into Mine Warfare in a big way. Lots of cool toys like the AUV.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Not knowing they were kinda ''out'' of that business, I'd be interested in why the refocus on the (intended?) bread and butter of the class...
 

Stoker

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Eye In The Sky said:
Not knowing they were kinda ''out'' of that business, I'd be interested in why the refocus on the (intended?) bread and butter of the class...

When we first received the class we mostly focused on the mechanical mine sweeping for the first 5 years or so as time went on less and less until the equipment was mothballed. In fact the gear was recently divested. The new concept of operations have the class moving more into a mine warfare role as most countries taking advantage of AUV technology. We are reconstituting capability and the end state will be actual overseas operations. When AOPS comes on the scene some of the roles traditionally done by the Kingston Class will be scaled back allowing the class to refocus on what it was intended for.
 

Edward Campbell

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kratz said:
The RCN just celebrated the 20th anniversary of the MCVD hulls, so we should get another 15 years out of them.  [:D


Yes, and good on 'em for far exceeding the expectations of those who conceived, designed, funded and approved the "little reserve ships" ... but if my own (25 years old) and many of your recent experience with defence procurement is any guide then isn't it time to see some action in NDHQ to conceive, design, fund and approve a new "small combatant?" Or does someone think that this, Liberal, government is going to come up with enough money (another $25 billion?) to build as many ships as the RCN's strategic plan ~ they actually have (had) one, called Leadmark, but it's been pulled from official sites  ~ says they need?
 

Cloud Cover

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Leadmark was pulled as soon as it was deemed no longer achieveable. In particular, the forecasted need for ship to shore landings and a surface combatant that can do more than just show up, fly the flag and basically only defend itself.
Leadmark was visionary, balanced and gave a very accurate long term appraisal of what Canada needed to remain relevant in the blue ocean at the year 2020.
AOPS was not part of Leadmark. Retiring the 280 and AOR without replacements in the water or in the slips was not even contemplated by Leadmark.
I don't believe the Cyclone was even selected when the first draft was circulated.
 

Colin Parkinson

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I think the design team and the navy people that brought us the MCDV's deserve a pat on the back, it's one of the unsung success stories in ship procurement we have had.
 

Stoker

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Colin P said:
I think the design team and the navy people that brought us the MCDV's deserve a pat on the back, it's one of the unsung success stories in ship procurement we have had.

It was on time and on budget however much political interference that led to a watered down design, some subpar equipment and fitted for but not with.
 

Kirkhill

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Cloud Cover said:
Leadmark was pulled as soon as it was deemed no longer achieveable. In particular, the forecasted need for ship to shore landings and a surface combatant that can do more than just show up, fly the flag and basically only defend itself.
Leadmark was visionary, balanced and gave a very accurate long term appraisal of what Canada needed to remain relevant in the blue ocean at the year 2020.
AOPS was not part of Leadmark. Retiring the 280 and AOR without replacements in the water or in the slips was not even contemplated by Leadmark.
I don't believe the Cyclone was even selected when the first draft was circulated.

Somebody name of VAdm Norman published Leadmark 2050 in May under the auspices of the Naval Association.

http://navalassoc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Leadmark-2050-13-May-2016.pdf

The drum is still being beaten - with ship to shore support figuring high on the wish list.

 

Eye In The Sky

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Cloud Cover said:
Leadmark was pulled as soon as it was deemed no longer achieveable. In particular, the forecasted need for ship to shore landings and a surface combatant that can do more than just show up, fly the flag and basically only defend itself.
Leadmark was visionary, balanced and gave a very accurate long term appraisal of what Canada needed to remain relevant in the blue ocean at the year 2020.
AOPS was not part of Leadmark. Retiring the 280 and AOR without replacements in the water or in the slips was not even contemplated by Leadmark.
I don't believe the Cyclone was even selected when the first draft was circulated.

Sadly, this type of defence...I don't know what word to use...stuff is the norm and accepted by our political masters and their bosses'; our neighbors and relatives not in the Service.

Something will have to go very bad for a change in the way this country operates our (ever shrinking and rusting) military.
 

Karel Doorman

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Here's something of(maybe)interest of what we're working on in the Netherlands:

Uuv's that are working in team,scanning for mines.Which are in constant contact with each other and don't come back until the job is done.All sounds a bit futuristic/Star Warsie but the dutch DMO(Defensie Materieel Organisatie) and technology institute(TNO)are working together feverishly just to accomplish that.

https://magazines.defensie.nl/materieelgezien/2017/01/mg201701onderwaterdrones


It's all in dutch but you'll get the picture .  [:)
 

Stoker

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Karel Doorman said:
Here's something of(maybe)interest of what we're working on in the Netherlands:

Uuv's that are working in team,scanning for mines.Which are in constant contact with each other and don't come back until the job is done.All sounds a bit futuristic/Star Warsie but the dutch DMO(Defensie Materieel Organisatie) and technology institute(TNO)are working together feverishly just to accomplish that.

https://magazines.defensie.nl/materieelgezien/2017/01/mg201701onderwaterdrones


It's all in dutch but you'll get the picture .  [:)


The Kingston Class are using UUV's now for mine warfare, we conducted trials last year using a US navy model.
 
J

jollyjacktar

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And the first one has been found.  Well done.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/avro-arrow-found-unveiling-1.4280537
 

Stoker

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jollyjacktar said:
And the first one has been found.  Well done.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/avro-arrow-found-unveiling-1.4280537

I was on the original search in 2005, its amazing how far the technology has come.
 
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