Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[dapaterson]

I'd rather we do an objective assessment of future threats and tailor the OPV to meet those, with flexibility and expandability to address other current and future missions.

Designing a military to fight the last battles / last wars rarely ends well - see the Maginot Line.

 

[Kirkhill]

Which "we"? And whose facts?

My problem is that no bugger in power agrees with me. They insist in doing whatever they damned well please.

"Boris Johnson was “like a shopping trolley” that could not be guided, Dominic Cummings has told MPs."

Indeed.

You would think that the people making the decisions had been elected or something.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I'd rather we do an objective assessment of future threats and tailor the OPV to meet those, with flexibility and expandability to address other current and future missions.

Designing a military to fight the last battles / last wars rarely ends well - see the Maginot Line.

Actually despite being disarmed and undermanned the Maginot did it's job. The failure is squarely on the French military and political leadership, along with poor performance by the Belgiums

 

[Swampbuggy]

I'd rather we do an objective assessment of future threats and tailor the OPV to meet those, with flexibility and expandability to address other current and future missions.

Designing a military to fight the last battles / last wars rarely ends well - see the Maginot Line.

I don't think those aims need be mutually exclusive. I believe a vessel that's well suited for drug enforcement/area patrol need not be built without flexibility or growth in mind. Containerized mission packages can be applied across the fleet for use in AOPS, OPV or CSC. I certainly agree with your point re: the Maginot line, but consider why it let the French down. It was designed as a deterrent and a path closure, and it worked in that capacity. The French didn't anticipate that the Germans would try the Ardennes, so that even when their own intelligence and surveillance told them a large number of German units were massing near there, Gamelin didn't believe it and ignored the warning. I think that's also a lesson, trust your intelligence. So, maybe don't send an OPV somewhere a frigate would be better suited based on threat assessment, or at least kit your OPV out accordingly with a mission package. I believe the basic design should have more in common with a true OPV (RIVER class, for example) then a mine sweeper/hunter. I think that distinction alone buys flexibility.

 

[Underway]

Arafura class is going to have a MCM variant. It's about 2000 ton OPV that is a good example. The Ozzies are arming them with a 40mm.



Fancy video of it here...

 

[Swampbuggy]

Arafura class is going to have a MCM variant. It's about 2000 ton OPV that is a good example. The Ozzies are arming them with a 40mm.

View attachment 65613

Fancy video of it here...

Were the RCN to purchase a number of these, it would at least be staving off the unpleasantness of an orphan fleet. The Aussie's are meant to build 14+ units, so lots of supply/support for quite some time, for a possible Canadian ARAFURA derivative.

 

[Underway]

I'm not entirely sure they are good for our environment as that quarterdeck is pretty open to the elements. But that's fixed easily enough. I was using them as an example of something that is both OPV and MCM.

Whatever ship we choose will be pretty simple with little concern for an orphan class, COTS diesel, electric motor, COTS nav equipment. All the military equipment (Comms, deck gun etc...) would be government-supplied so most of the stuff would match. At least it wouldn't be an orphan if we built 6 or more...

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm not entirely sure they are good for our environment as that quarterdeck is pretty open to the elements. But that's fixed easily enough. I was using them as an example of something that is both OPV and MCM.

Whatever ship we choose will be pretty simple with little concern for an orphan class, COTS diesel, electric motor, COTS nav equipment. All the military equipment (Comms, deck gun etc...) would be government-supplied so most of the stuff would match. At least it wouldn't be an orphan if we built 6 or more...

But they would be fine for the Caribbean and similar places with warm climates we might like to offer assistance.

 

[YZT580]

But they would be fine for the Caribbean and similar places with warm climates we might like to offer assistance.

Caribbean in January good, transiting from Halifax to Caribbean in January with an open cockpit is not so good.

 

[Swampbuggy]

I thought we decided to port them all on the West Coast, no?

 

[Kirkhill]

On Canada Day, a different view of Canada.

Now what would it take to clear a deep water channel from Tuk to Yellowknife? Or even Fort MacMurray?

 

[Kirkhill]

A Future?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Now what would it take to clear a deep water channel from Tuk to Yellowknife? Or even Fort MacMurray?

Well you could arm these, be a tad bit cheaper

 

[Kirkhill]

Well you could arm these, be a tad bit cheaper

True. But I just think it would be neat to sail in one ocean going hull from Yellowknife to T-Bay. Being able to sail into Fort Mac would be a bonus. And think of the shipping possibilities. Even if we were limited to the three months of hard sledding.

 

[Kirkhill]

Besides. Infrastructure!

 

[Weinie]

View attachment 65641

On Canada Day, a different view of Canada.

Now what would it take to clear a deep water channel from Tuk to Yellowknife? Or even Fort MacMurray?

Ummm, did we revert back to April 1st today?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

True. But I just think it would be neat to sail in one ocean going hull from Yellowknife to T-Bay. Being able to sail into Fort Mac would be a bonus. And think of the shipping possibilities. Even if we were limited to the three months of hard sledding.

CCG did sail a number of these vessels up the West coast, around Alaska to get there. I have heard that the voyages were "interesting"

 

[lenaitch]

View attachment 65641

On Canada Day, a different view of Canada.

Now what would it take to clear a deep water channel from Tuk to Yellowknife? Or even Fort MacMurray?

May have to do the Thunder Bay leg disarmed:

(Rush-Bagot Treaty)

Avalon Project - British-American Diplomcay : Exchange of Notes Relative to Naval Forces on the American Lakes

 

[Kirkhill]

May have to do the Thunder Bay leg disarmed:

(Rush-Bagot Treaty)

Avalon Project - British-American Diplomcay : Exchange of Notes Relative to Naval Forces on the American Lakes

I think that ship may have sailed already.

news.usni.org/2018/04/02/littoral-combat-ship-uss-little-rock-leaves-montreal-three-months-trapped-ice

"A Canadian Foreign Affairs official said Ottawa has agreed to read the treaty in such a way that coast guard vessels may be mounted with guns by considering them weapons of law enforcement rather than war.

Canada reserves the right to arm its own vessels as well, the official told CBC News.

Under the reinterpretation, which both sides say honours the spirit of the original treaty, vessels may be outfitted with machine-guns of sizes up to .50-calibre. That would be big enough to bring down a helicopter and shoot through a light-armoured vehicle.

Colclough said the United States has no intention of equipping the vessels with .50-calibre machine-guns at this point.

Frederick Stonehouse, a Michigan-based historian who has written 26 books on the Great Lakes, said the Rush-Bagot treaty's references to wooden ships and cannons have long been obsolete.

However, Stonehouse said the spirit of the treaty remains both clear and respected by both sides.

"Certainly the Great Lakes [have] not had any military vessels stationed on [them] since â gosh, really since the advent of that treaty.""

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/u-s-puts-machine-guns-on-great-lakes-coast-guard-vessels-1.622621

I think the key word is "stationed". Transit seems to be permitted.

 

[Maxman1]

I'm not entirely sure they are good for our environment as that quarterdeck is pretty open to the elements. But that's fixed easily enough. I was using them as an example of something that is both OPV and MCM.

Whatever ship we choose will be pretty simple with little concern for an orphan class, COTS diesel, electric motor, COTS nav equipment. All the military equipment (Comms, deck gun etc...) would be government-supplied so most of the stuff would match. At least it wouldn't be an orphan if we built 6 or more...

The Finns are developing a pretty interesting corvette, the Pohjanma class. It will be about 3,900 tons, 374 feet overall and 52 feet beam, have a crew of 70, CODLAG propulsion with a total of 40,000 HP, a Bofors 57mm and eight Mk 41 VLS cells, and be the equivalent of Polar Class 7.

Or there's the Braunschweig and Sa'ar 6 corvettes.