Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[calculus]

Captain Drew Graham (Director of Naval Requirements) recently did a Speakers Event for the Naval Association of Canada and had some interesting information to put forward to the public regarding the Kingston class and the future Canadian Multi-Mission Corvette. All of the information and photos below are taken from his slideshow, that I will link at the bottom for anybody interested.

Early concept images for CMC, obviously should be taken with a substantial grain of salt.

- Introduced to the public for the first time here as a recognized project, currently in the identification phase.

- Kingston's have been recommended for divestment as their hull certifications expire, final vessel in the class is approved for paying off in 2029.

- Proposed delivery timeline of mid-2030's, this is a very aggressive timeline, but is being heavily pitched as important to Government.

- CMC needs to be a "small warship", bridging the gap between DeWolf and River classes.

- Around the 1000 ton mark, likely a bit heavier.

- 105m long or less due to berthing plan requirements at existing/future base infrastructure.

- Requires its own organic sensor suite, including an air search radar and sonar (hull mounted or towed array) to defend itself against modern threats.

- Serious consideration being placed on strike length VLS (integrated or containerized?) in order to contribute to North American continental defence against ballistic missile and satellite threats through radar/CMS links to NORAD/other allied systems.

- 40 personnel compliment with automation.

- Care is being paid to cost effectiveness and use of containerized/modular payloads

- Unsure of CMC order size at this time, studies underway to determine this.

- Talks about domestic shipyards of middling size coming to maturity, potential candidates for this program. Potential issues with the NSS if this is followed.

Seems like a lot of capability for a 1000 ton ship. I agree with your assessment "likely a bit heavier", but when we start talking VLS and the required sensor suite, I think 2000+ is more realistic.

 

[Kirkhill]

Seems like a lot of capability for a 1000 ton ship. I agree with your assessment "likely a bit heavier", but when we start talking VLS and the required sensor suite, I think 2000+ is more realistic.

Mk70 PDS containerized launch system is deployed from 53m OSVs.

The call is for containerized capabilities.

 

[calculus]

Sure, but a manned vessel, with Bridge, Operations room, crew accommodations (including associated spaces such as head, messes, gyms), hangar, etc...., even at 105 m, will not have a lot of space for 40 ft sea containers. Not saying it can't be done, but it will be an engineering challenge to do all this in a 1000 ton ship, IMHO. What puzzles me is if you are designing a ship from scratch, and want that capability, why not design it around a VLS to begin with.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/rms/documents/naval-launchers-and-munitions/Mk70_Product_Card.pdf

 

[Kirkhill]

I don't know, but if you put a VLS in, especially a strike length unit then it seems to me that you are committing a volume, a displacement, to that specific task and you are committing the vessel to a specific draft.

The PDS system can be lifted onto any weather deck, preferably one close to the water line I would guess.

Also, as with the AOPS those containers could be swapped out. If the interim conops is sailing flotillas of three, as seems to be suggested in the presentations then perhaps only one or two of the ships, will carry the missiles.

...

Again, I don't know. I did note that the US Navy's USV program director seems to have decided that he likes containerization because he can build one hull and swap containers and leave the opposition guessing while he plays three card monte.

I guess that would come down to how the space aft of the bridge is ultimately configured.

...

Perhaps something closer to 75-85m , like Vards other ships (Leonard J Cowley, Roisin, Protector)?

And if they displaced 1000 tonne light would they fit within the small ship NSS class? How much additional burden could they support heavy?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Side effect of the Kingstons going away is that there will be less opportunity to crew on these vessels by Cadets, as there will be far greater security requirements.

 

[Stoker]

Side effect of the Kingstons going away is that there will be less opportunity to crew on these vessels by Cadets, as there will be far greater security requirements.

Cadets don't generally sail on Kingston Class and I doubt if they'll ever sail that much on the replacement.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Cadets don't generally sail on Kingston Class and I doubt if they'll ever sail that much on the replacement.

They used to get multiple day sails on them.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Sadly, Colin, I don't think that the capability to provide cadet day sails is a requirement that is taken into consideration when planning the acquisition of warships.

If the ship is anything like the drawing rendered above from the presentation, I would eat my shirt if it came out at 1000 tons. From the looks of it, I would say more like in the 1500 to 2000 tons range. And the picture really leaves everything out as far as the mast is concerned. If they want air search capability for self air defense, you are talking something like the current Sea giraffe or Smart-S radar found on the HALs (but only one, not both). in which case you end up with a more substantial mast - and for stability's sake, that means more weight lower in the ship (and thus displacement).

Similarly, if you are talking about sonar (including possibly a towed array one) for "self-defense", then you are talking equipment operators for the array, sonar operators and (because a sonar without a weapons does sh%$ for your own defense) probably weapons tech for the torpedoes (or ASROCs in the strike length tubes?) in which case you can probably kiss goodbye to your 40 pers sized crew, automation or not.

 

[Navy_Pete]

This is a pipe dream from an organization with no credible plan to crew the current fleet, let alone add on additional ships with the river class, and possibly triple the size of the submarines (which means an absolutely massive tail).

I doubt we'll get anything when the MCDVs retire TBH, which is a shame, as we need replacements for MCDVs way more than we need AOPs.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Sadly, Colin, I don't think that the capability to provide cadet day sails is a requirement that is taken into consideration when planning the acquisition of warships.

I get that, but getting Cadets out on vessels is a good way to recruit and continue building a sustainable pipeline of new sailors. Perhaps save 3 MCDV's, one west Coast, east and one in the Great Lakes. Hire ex-navy personal to man them in the summer to run Cadets, NEP and Reservist through sail training.

 

[MilEME09]

This is a pipe dream from an organization with no credible plan to crew the current fleet, let alone add on additional ships with the river class, and possibly triple the size of the submarines (which means an absolutely massive tail).

I doubt we'll get anything when the MCDVs retire TBH, which is a shame, as we need replacements for MCDVs way more than we need AOPs.

Sounds like there is a lot of effort by the navy to get something going fast, with a target of 2035 for first ship. It's now evolved into a full corvette, target crew size of 40.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Sounds like there is a lot of effort by the navy to get something going fast, with a target of 2035 for first ship. It's now evolved into a full corvette, target crew size of 40.

There was pretty minimal effort to get some renderings done based on a few people's wish list; this is no where on the horizon for funding approval, and as soon as they go over 1000 tonnes, it's part of NSS (as per the umbrella agreement with the shipyards).

2035 is a rectal pluck from an operator that has no idea what is involved with delivering a ship in the GoC, and didn't talk to anyone. The cupboards at NDHQ are littered with similar proposals for different ships we never looked at seriously, and at one point there was an entire section that just dreamed up fake ships.

If more ships are going to be added to NSS, CCG will have priority, as they've been working on that for years, and need it to replace a lot of their fleet. Also, do we really want to distract ISI from delivering CSC ASAP? The RCN and DGMPD still need to create and staff an actual PMO for the sub replacement, and that one will be pretty substantial, and far bigger than the current stragglers we have that aren't being absorbed into CSC or retiring.

 

[Stoker]

They used to get multiple day sails on them.

Perhaps once of twice at least out east and day sailing is not the same as crewing a Kingston Class. Perhaps you should be lamenting the impending loss of Oriole which did crew actual cadets.

 

[Stoker]

There was pretty minimal effort to get some renderings done based on a few people's wish list; this is no where on the horizon for funding approval, and as soon as they go over 1000 tonnes, it's part of NSS (as per the umbrella agreement with the shipyards).

2035 is a rectal pluck from an operator that has no idea what is involved with delivering a ship in the GoC, and didn't talk to anyone. The cupboards at NDHQ are littered with similar proposals for different ships we never looked at seriously, and at one point there was an entire section that just dreamed up fake ships.

If more ships are going to be added to NSS, CCG will have priority, as they've been working on that for years, and need it to replace a lot of their fleet. Also, do we really want to distract ISI from delivering CSC ASAP? The RCN and DGMPD still need to create and staff an actual PMO for the sub replacement, and that one will be pretty substantial, and far bigger than the current stragglers we have that aren't being absorbed into CSC or retiring.

I just read that Davie is gearing up with ship designers to come up with a replacement design. They are going after the project apparently.

 

[Stoker]

They used to get multiple day sails on them.

I think you're mistaking Kingston Class for Orcas.

 

[Cloud Cover]

The RCN is getting this type of large corvette because this country cannot afford 15 CSC. I doubt Canada will see more than 7/8 CSC and that includes the 3 Rivers announced.

The Sa’ar 6 corvette comes in a 1900tons, seems to fit the requested dimensions for length, and crew of 70 with aircrew and boarding team. Need a different helicopter though.
Also packs a much heavier punch than Sa’ar 5 or even the EPC.

 

[Czech_pivo]

The RCN is getting this type of large corvette because this country cannot afford 15 CSC. I doubt Canada will see more than 7/8 CSC and that includes the 3 Rivers announced.

The Sa’ar 6 corvette comes in a 1900tons, seems to fit the requested dimensions for length, and crew of 70 with aircrew and boarding team. Need a different helicopter though.
Also packs a much heavier punch than Sa’ar 5 or even the EPC.

Sure hope you are wrong

 

[deepblue202]

I am of the mind to tell Irving shipbuilding that if they cannot supply this vessel in a timely period of time that they allow another ship yard to proceed as we will have almost no Halifax frigates still floating by the time they have only a few of the type 26 River class destroyers.

 

[KevinB]

The RCN is getting this type of large corvette because this country cannot afford 15 CSC. I doubt Canada will see more than 7/8 CSC and that includes the 3 Rivers announced.

The Sa’ar 6 corvette comes in a 1900tons, seems to fit the requested dimensions for length, and crew of 70 with aircrew and boarding team. Need a different helicopter though.
Also packs a much heavier punch than Sa’ar 5 or even the EPC.

There is a zero percent chance Canada can walk back from the 15 CSC without a major incident down here.

The Corvette/Frigate Combatant is simply another needed system in today’s world to be a relative participant.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Side effect of the Kingstons going away is that there will be less opportunity to crew on these vessels by Cadets, as there will be far greater security requirements.

Maybe consideration should be given to small boats for the Cadets to train on in the Great Lakes/St Lawrence River up to Quebec City. A very substantial % of the population lives between Thunder Bay and Quebec City within a 45mins drive to Great Lakes/St Lawrence. Also would be great from a marketing angle as more people can actually see the RCN in action and actually doing something (not that they are not, just that the vast majority of CDN's have never seen seen a CDN warship before).