Masters Of The Air (Apple TV+)

[mariomike]

Haven't seen the show yet, but the U.S. and Canada paid a high price.

The 8th Air Force suffered more than 26,000 dead.

Eighth Air Force History

During World War II, Eighth Air Force earned a reputation as a great warfighting organization. Originally, the U.S. Army Air Forces activated the Eighth at Savannah, Georgia, on 28 January 1942 with

www.8af.af.mil

10,673 members of the RCAF were killed while serving with Bomber Command. Their names are listed on the Memorial.

https://www.old.bombercommandmuseum.ca/memorial/

To be listed on the Memorial the individual must have been killed while serving with a Bomber Command Squadron or while training with a Bomber Command Operational Training Unit or a Bomber Command Heavy Conversion Unit. Individuals are not included if they died in off-duty accidents or due to illness

 

[daftandbarmy]

Nothing succeeds like excess...


The Effectiveness of the Combined Bomber Offensive

Many air power proponents entered World War II with the belief that air power alone would bring Germany to its knees and force capitulation. This was not the official purpose of the Combined Bomber Offensive (CBO). This thought combined with the fact that the CBO did not produce a decisive victory often over shadows the fact that the CBO achieved its objectives and more. The official objective of the CBO was to reduce Germany‟s means to resist by establishing and exploiting air superiority, thus allowing the invasion of the continent in the spring of 1944. Despite the fact that the CBO did not produce a decisive victory over Germany, it was a decisive factor in the defeat of Germany. In order to understand how the CBO was effective one must examine both the intended and indirect effects of the operation. The intended effects resulted from CBO attacks against the German aircraft industry, transportation industry and infrastructure, and industrial system. However, the effects of these attacks rippled throughout the Third Reich. The unintended consequences of these direct attacks hampered Germany‟s capabilities to conduct war. The intended effects along with the indirect effects of the attacks best demonstrate how the CBO was effective.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/AD1019753.pdf

 

[mariomike]

A soldier wrote these letters to Bomber Harris,

1 ) Supreme Headquarters

Allied Expeditionary Force

Office of the Supreme Commander

13th July, 1944

Dear Harris,

Your recent performance in the CAEN area was an eye opener to me, and emphasises in my mind, again, the magnitude of the debt that this Allied Command owes to you and your Officers and Men. Your long record of pounding vital targets in Germany, of interrupting enemy communications, of preparing the way for our invasion forces, and now, literally, becoming an agent, in proper circumstances, of close battle support, is one to excite praise and admiration.

I am truly proud to have you and your Command in this Allied Team. We could not possibly get along without you.

Good Luck.

Sincerely,
Dwight Eisenhower.

2) Air Chief Marshall Sir Arthur T. Harris, K.C.B., O.B.E., A.F.C..
Air Officer Commanding in Chief,
Bomber Command.

Gettysburg,
Pennsylvania.

June 5th, 1964.

Dear Bert,

On this Sixth June, I suspect that your memory goes back, as mine does, to live over again the gnawing anxieties, the realisation of unavoidable sacrifices, and the bright hopes that filled us on D-Day, 1944.

Never, during the two decades that have since passed, have I ceased to render daily and devout thanks to a kindly Providence for permitting us to achieve in eleven months the complete victory that so many believed would require years.

In the same way, I have always felt a deep sense of appreciation and gratitude to all those who took part in, or who served in a supporting role for, that great Allied venture.

To you, one of my close associates in OVERLORD, I am impelled to send, once more, a special word of thanks. Your professional skill and selfless dedication to the cause in which we all served will be noted by the histories of those dramatic months, but no historian could possibly be aware of the depth of my obligation to you.

With warm regard,

As ever,
IKE E
President Eisenhower.

Two letters to Arthur Harris from Eisenhower · IBCC Digital Archive

 

[FSTO]

Watched the 3 episodes tonight. The battle scenes are amazing. But did the fortress gunners shoot down that many fighters?

Also the scene with the RAF pilots. I was hoping that Tom Hanks could come up with something a little more original than insults and the Yanks knocking out the kipper with one blow.

But overall a great series.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Watched the 3 episodes tonight. The battle scenes are amazing. But did the fortress gunners shoot down that many fighters?

Also the scene with the RAF pilots. I was hoping that Tom Hanks could come up with something a little more original than insults and the Yanks knocking out the kipper with one blow.

But overall a great series.

It is hard to tell how many fighters bomber gunners shot down. Over claiming was a huge issue: there were big discrepancy between gunner claims and the post war examination of Luftwaffe loss records.

 

[mariomike]

But did the fortress gunners shoot down that many fighters?

This may, or may not, be of interest.

Confirmation and overclaiming of aerial victories during World War II

Confirmation and overclaiming of aerial victories during World War II - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[daftandbarmy]

Some 'non-flying' aces racked up more victories than the pilot kind

In World War II, United States Army Air Forces S/Sgt. Michael Arooth, a Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress tail gunner serving in the 379th Bombardment Group, was credited with 19 kills[63][64] and the Consolidated B-24 Liberator gunner Arthur J. Benko (374th Bombardment Squadron) with 16 kills. The Royal Air Force's leading bomber gunner, Wallace McIntosh, was credited with eight kills while serving as a rear turret gunner on Avro Lancasters, including three on one mission. Flight Sergeant F. J. Barker contributed to 12 victories while flying as a gunner in a Boulton Paul Defiant turret-equipped fighter piloted by Flight Sergeant E. R. Thorne.[65][66] On the German side, Erwin Hentschel, the Junkers Ju 87 rear gunner of Luftwaffe pilot and anti-tank ace Hans-Ulrich Rudel, had 7 confirmed kills. The crew of the bomber pilot Otto Köhnke from Kampfgeschwader 3 is credited with the destruction of 11 enemy fighters (6 French, 1 British, 4 Soviet).

Flying ace - Wikipedia

 

[mariomike]

The Royal Air Force's leading bomber gunner, Wallace McIntosh, was credited with eight kills while serving as a rear turret gunner on Avro Lancasters, including three on one mission.

Pretty remarkable considering Lancasters fired .303's, which "Bomber Harris" described as "pea shooters".

Of Bomber Commend's 55,573 killed, ten Lancaster crew members were awarded the Victoria Cross.

​

 

[daftandbarmy]

Pretty remarkable considering Lancasters fired .303's, which "Bomber Harris" described as "pea shooters".

Of Bomber Commend's 55,573 killed, ten Lancaster crew members were awarded the Victoria Cross.

​

If you watch this they mention that the crews liked the 4 x .303 turrets better as the guns gave a 'scatter' effect that increased the likelihood of getting a hit ...

 

[mariomike]

If you watch this they mention that the crews liked the 4 x .303 turrets better as the guns gave a 'scatter' effect that increased the likelihood of getting a hit ...

Wonder how many even had a chance to fire their guns?

In a post-war interogation by Bomber Command air-gunners on 21 May, 1945, LW night-fighter ace Major Heinz Schnaufer said that he had attacked 20 to 30 night-bombers at a range of 80 yards with his Schrage Musik guns and of those only about 10% saw him approaching at a distance of 150 to 200 metres and tried to evade him by "corkscrewing" before he could open fire.

Herbert Altner NJG5 shot down five Lancasters in 33 minutes on the Revigny raid using it, and Major Schnaufer himself shot down seven Lancasters, in just 19 minutes.
41 Lancaters were shot down on the Revigny raid.

Freeman Dyson had this to say,

"If we had taken the evidence more seriously, we might have discovered Schräge Musik in time to respond with effective countermeasures."

He also proposed ripping out the mid-upper and rear gun turrets from the Lancasters, to cut the catastrophic losses to German night-fighters in the Battle of Berlin. A Lancaster without turrets could apparently fly 50 mph (80 km/h) faster and be much more maneuverable.

 

[lenaitch]

Schrage Musik

That was the upward-firing guns (either fixed or high-elevation turret) installed on some German aircraft. I don't know if any Commonwealth bomber had a ventral turret.

 

[lenaitch]

If you watch this they mention that the crews liked the 4 x .303 turrets better as the guns gave a 'scatter' effect that increased the likelihood of getting a hit ...

I just watch that last night. More of a documentary than a movie with actors. Typically British understated; 'we had a job to do'.

 

[mariomike]

I don't know if any Commonwealth bomber had a ventral turret.

Ventral turret

The ventral (underside) FN-64 turret quickly proved to be dead weight, being both difficult to sight because it relied on a periscope which limited the gunner's view to a 20-degree arc,[35] and too slow to keep a target within its sights.[note 3] Aside from early B.Is and the prototype B.IIs, the FN-64 was almost never used. When the Luftwaffe began using Schräge Musik to make attacks from below in the winter of 1943/1944, modifications were made, including downward observation blisters mounted behind the bomb aimer's blister[40] and official[41] and unofficial mounts for .50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns or even 20 mm (0.79 in) cannon, firing through the ventral holes of the removed FN-64. The fitting of these guns was hampered as the same ventral position was used for mounting the H2S blister, which limited installations to those aircraft fitted with bulged bomb bays which interfered with the H2S.[35]

Avro Lancaster - Wikipedia

 

[daftandbarmy]

Ventral turret

The ventral (underside) FN-64 turret quickly proved to be dead weight, being both difficult to sight because it relied on a periscope which limited the gunner's view to a 20-degree arc,[35] and too slow to keep a target within its sights.[note 3] Aside from early B.Is and the prototype B.IIs, the FN-64 was almost never used. When the Luftwaffe began using Schräge Musik to make attacks from below in the winter of 1943/1944, modifications were made, including downward observation blisters mounted behind the bomb aimer's blister[40] and official[41] and unofficial mounts for .50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns or even 20 mm (0.79 in) cannon, firing through the ventral holes of the removed FN-64. The fitting of these guns was hampered as the same ventral position was used for mounting the H2S blister, which limited installations to those aircraft fitted with bulged bomb bays which interfered with the H2S.[35]

“It was part of war; men died, more would die, that was past, and what mattered now was the business in hand; those who lived would get on with it. Whatever sorrow was felt, there was no point in talking or brooding about it, much less in making, for form’s sake, a parade of it. Better and healthier to forget it, and look to tomorrow.

The celebrated British stiff upper lip, the resolve to conceal emotion which is not only embarrassing and useless, but harmful, is just plain common sense”

― George MacDonald Fraser

 

[lenaitch]

Ventral turret

The ventral (underside) FN-64 turret quickly proved to be dead weight, being both difficult to sight because it relied on a periscope which limited the gunner's view to a 20-degree arc,[35] and too slow to keep a target within its sights.[note 3] Aside from early B.Is and the prototype B.IIs, the FN-64 was almost never used. When the Luftwaffe began using Schräge Musik to make attacks from below in the winter of 1943/1944, modifications were made, including downward observation blisters mounted behind the bomb aimer's blister[40] and official[41] and unofficial mounts for .50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns or even 20 mm (0.79 in) cannon, firing through the ventral holes of the removed FN-64. The fitting of these guns was hampered as the same ventral position was used for mounting the H2S blister, which limited installations to those aircraft fitted with bulged bomb bays which interfered with the H2S.[35]

Interesting, I did not know that. Apparently it was only installed in an early variant.

 

[Rifleman62]

Two videos re Air Gunners. First one re shot down claims/friendly fire. The second is the development of the Air Gunner. It has an 60 sec repeat error. A very interesting account of a Russian Bear visiting a UK airshow at the end.

Note that some Sqns mounted .50 in there turrets. You can see them in the rear turret in the movie Lancaster posted above.

How Common was Friendly Fire Among Bombers in WWII?​

Aircraft Turrets And Defense Tactics | Interesting Historical Facts You Might Not Know ​

 

[mariomike]

How Common was Friendly Fire Among Bombers in WWII?​

One example,

12-Jul-44 - Revigny - Lancaster - ND993 - F/O PJ Abbott - FTR - Friendly fire victim. Fired on by Lancaster LL896 of 166 Sq. Returned fire. Both aircraft crashed at Montiers-sur-Saux, France.

Canada Bombs | Bomber Command recruitment film (1943)

 

[Rifleman62]

Shoot down of a B-24 from a German fighter ace viewpoint.

The Bomber that was NOT Supposed to be Shot Down​

PS. You can see Walter Cronkite in the BW photo of the correspondences.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Under paid, under sexed, and under Eisenhower. ☺

Yet he was an example of a General who would f*ck the crack of dawn if he could get close enough.

 

[dangerboy]

For those that are interested and have a Kobo Ereader the Ebook version of "A Wing and a Prayer" by Harry H. Crosby (a key member of the bomber group) is currently on sale for $1.99 on the Kobo site (A Wing and a Prayer ebook by Harry H. Crosby - Rakuten Kobo)