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MAybe Chretien was right after all for keeping us out-Iraq War

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RoyalHighlander

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Im sitting here watching the news, and wondering now if our Great leader PM Chretien was right by not getting us on the band wagon will all the others in the so called coalition.
Now here is my train of thought on this. Over the last few days the US has given Russia **** for sending equipment to Bagdad, They have had trouble with the Turks too. With turkish troops crossing over into Iraq.. And were telling THEM whats what.. Now they are on Syrias case too now. WHOA CHARLIE ! ! Who's next? They been giving us (CANADA) grief too over our not being supportive enough towards them. Wait a cotton pickin minute there people....? WTF is going on now?? I may just have too much time on my hands here stting at home and following the war on the CBC, BBC, CNN, CTV, etc... but im getting a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that the REAL **** hasnt even started yet.. Does any one else also feel that way???
Whos to say the Syrians dont jump in on Iraqs side?? I may have a vivid imagination, but what I see here is all the makings of a major, MAJOR fu*k up over there....
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Not only there. After the war‘s over, the world‘s going to be totally FUBAR.

IMHO, the Bush Administration is thinking that since they are currently a world power that:
1) they will ALWAYS be a world power
2) they can do whatever they want

I have a sinking feeling that once the war is over, the global community will give the US grief for this war. Plus i don‘t know if the american people will stand for it much longer. Look how expensive the war is becoming!
 
Britannia was once a world power, if folks here can remember any of their history. Look at them now, just a shadow of its former glory. The Roman Empire was to last for ever too, and looked what happened to it....Nothing is forever except DEATH and TAXES ..
 
Exactly...I actually wrote an essay about this subject. SInce the US built its empire using the model of dead empires it too will die in time. And fast.

Empires are at their greatest when they are in the process of becoming empires. Once they have ‘become‘ they start to crumble. For the Egyptians it took many eras to really grow and prosper. Once they had ‘become‘ they started to crumble under their own strength. Same happened to the Greeks, the Romans, the British, the Soviet Union...**** even the Third Reich.

Each empire rises and falls faster and faster (from thousands of years in Egypt, to centuries with the British, to the Soviet Union only really prospering since the last (19th/20th centuries)(prospering may not be a great word)). But when the american empire falls (which controls much of the world) what will be left?
 
Dubya‘s neo-conservative advisors have made it quite clear since the early ‘90s that Iraq was simply a stepping-stone. Not sure if the link has been posted anywhere here before. Read the stuff coming out of these guys and it will become crystal where the US is headed. Brits are pretty pissed at the US sabre-rattling re. Iran and Syria. UK government says they will have nothing to do with a widening conflict.
Project for a New American Century
 
I‘m a little skeptical about the imperial conspiracy theories. US soldiers like to spend time at home just as much as Canadian soldiers. I expect the cost and social strains of a high op tempo serve as a reality check.
 
:cdn:bottom line, the world evolves around money thats what our greedy American friends are after
 
Yes, Sadam needed taking out,but the Yank‘s blew it by not using all diplomatic avanue‘s to get a consesus for this war.
If they had, they may have a coalition if 500,000 plus there now and it might be over now.

Because it‘s just the Brit‘s and the Yank‘s and not the World it‘s a total differant story.

Even though they will take Baghdad this will go on for year‘s and we will see a increase of terroism because of Bush‘s arrogance.
 
This is a great thread, and I have to wade in.

I heard Rex Murphy interviewing Desmond Morton about this topic last Sunday on his CBC radio show, and from what I can remember of the discussion, a lot of what he said made sense to me. Some highlights:
  • We‘re best friends with the Americans whether we want to be or not -- our mutual geographic and economic conditions guarantee this. It‘s just a fact of life.
  • The Bush Administration (as opposed to the entire US political establishment) just did not make the link between Iraq and Al Qaeda (sic) that both Canada and the rest of the world needed to garner their diplomatic -- if not military -- support.
  • If you‘re not going to come right out and state your position on an unpopular war of aggression/defence(?), then for God‘s sake keep your mouth shout! Letting Cabinet ministers spout off against the conflict only makes it that much harder for the diplomats to do their thing behind the scenes.
  • The US is suffering a severe paranoia attack right now in the aftermath of 9/11 and has "terrorism on the brain". Once they‘ve exorcised their anxiety on Iraq, they‘ll likely take a deep breath and step back. Colin Powell will reassert his power as Secretary of State and the US will move to repair the damage it‘s caused to the 50+ years of multilateral diplomacy it created through NATO, the UN, etc.
Now, having studied Anglo-American relations in the early years of the last century at grad school, I could get academic and spout off about how this obsession with Iraq is:
  • A modern interpretation of the Monroe Doctrine (no foreign involvement is permitted in Central or South America), extended to another area of key economic and military interest to the US; and,
  • An over-reaction to global events that has shocked the US out of its tendency to self-isolation -- just like the Lusitania (WW1) and Pearl Harbour (WW2).
However, next to nobody likes academic know-it-alls -- especially me -- and this line of discussion is best explored in Foreign Affairs or the International History Review (and I‘m sure it will be).

Did our government properly stick-handle its position on the war? Of course not! That would‘ve went totally against the fine Liberal tradition of obfuscation -- of which our PM is an acknowledged master.

Of course Canada is indirectly supporting the war on Iraq -- the presence of our ships and aircraft in the Gulf area, as well as the lack of recall of exchange officers serving with US and UK forces, says this to all in no uncertain terms. Remember the old saying, "Actions speak louder than words"? The presence of our military personnel in-theatre sends a very strong diplomatic statement. The US realises this, as does the UK and the rest of the world.

The bland statements of support for the UN that the government has issued, its skirting of outright support for the US actions but confirming its support of the US to defend itself when it felt threatened, would likely have been fine and perfectly acceptable to Washington -- if certain Cabinet ministers and Liberal MPs hadn‘t spoken out so strongly and publicly against the US. Their gaffes complicated immensely the hard work done by the mandarins in Foreign Affairs to make sure that the Americans knew we were with them, even if the political climate in Canada did not permit the government to come right out and say so.

That being said, it sickened me to read this on Friday:
National Post
(Fri 04 Apr 2003)
By Steven Edwards

UNITED NATIONS - With the battle for Baghdad under way, Germany, France and Canada, all previously vocal opponents of the war in Iraq, are scrambling to mend fences with the United States.

Germany yesterday welcomed the removal of Saddam Hussein after earlier condemning regime change as a war aim. France signalled it would accept U.S. and British control of Iraq immediately after the war, and Canada affirmed its friendship with its southern neighbour.

The changes come as world attention shifts to Iraq‘s post-war reconstruction and the billions of dollars worth of contracts that it will involve. . . .
Being a student of diplomatic history, it shouldn‘t surprise me that France and Germany -- along with Canada -- would now choose to come out in favour of regime change in Iraq and attempt to patch things up with the US. After all, if they don‘t they‘ll put their business interests at a severe disadvantage in bidding for post-war contracts to rebuild Iraq, right?

If our government wants to continue to believe that it can act as America‘s conscience in this new, post-Cold War world, then I think we all know what it needs to do: conduct a joint foreign /defence policy review and provide the funds required to support them. I don‘t just mean money for strategic airlift, new tanks or destroyers, but for things such as foreign aid and economic development. We need to know where we‘re going, and if we‘re sending troops into harm‘s way, we owe it to them to make it clear exactly what it is we‘re asking them to risk their lives for.

When the world had two superpowers staring each other down, there was a legitimate neutral ground where "middle powers" such as Canada could operate, and who could use the UN to help influence the policy decisions of the superpowers. I think this middle ground is now gone, and in the new vacuum we‘re currently in, no one is going to listen to Canada unless we put our money where our mouth is.

I think Canadian foreign policy can and should operate independent of the US, but we should d*mned well have the ability to project our policy independent of the US. From what I‘ve been able to glean from ministerial statements about Canada‘s position on various topics, it seems to me that we‘re moving farther away from this every day. This is too bad, as I think we as a nation have a lot to offer the rest of the world, and if someone asked for our help, we could make a big difference (like in sub-Saharan Africa, for example. Remember the "Bungle in the Jungle"?).

Anyways, sorry to ramble, but I had to get this out.
 
Being a student of diplomatic history, it shouldn‘t surprise me that France and Germany -- along with Canada -- would now choose to come out in favour of regime change in Iraq and attempt to patch things up with the US. After all, if they don‘t they‘ll put their business interests at a severe disadvantage in bidding for post-war contracts to rebuild Iraq, right?
Can you name a single country in the world that doesn‘t act primarily out of self-interest? Why is that so shockingly wrong to you?

I was opposed to the war without UN sanction, but now that it has started, I support it whole heartedly.

Why can‘t entire nations be entitled to feel the same way?
 
Jason, well wrote. I must say I agree with everything you have posted.

I think Canada and Canadians would have been much more in support of war against Iraq if the US further explored diplomatic actions to make Iraq submit. The US did not hide their war hunger when it suddenly turned it‘s vengance from Afghanistan to Iraq. Most of the international community of coarse, put up resistance.
The US, in it‘s bold arrogance, IMO virtually forced us to dissagree by making increasing demands on our friendship and then commiting the final insult of accusing us of perfidy and bad faith when we ultimately choose to stand by our principles even at the expense of our friendship.

I agree, it will be interesting what unfolds after Iraq is over with. US companies are already lashing out at Canadian, French and Germany companies, will there be an equal backlash against American economic trade?
 
"explored more diplomatic actions"?? Like what? Wait another 12 years and just a couple of more chemical massacres.
 
There hasn‘t been any chemical attacks/massacres since Gulf War One, was there?
 
If there was i‘m sure the free press in Iraq would be sure to let us know. PLEEEEASE!!
 
Michael,

No, I‘m not surprised their/our attitudes have changed about the war. The timing, however, leaves a lot to be desired.

It‘s one thing to be all high and mighty in your philosophical opposition before the fighting begins, but to change your mind when the Americans are knocking on the gates of Baghdad and it actually looks like they‘re going to pull it off, it‘s just so d*mned hypocritical!

Don‘t they realize how transparent this is? These public policy reversals feed directly into the "oil war" conspiracies the left-wing press is always hyping up. It‘s not about oil -- it‘s about American paranoia! Now, is the paranoia justified? I‘d say that depends on which side of the 48th parallel you call home.

As far as changing public support for the war, I would suggest that nations -- and people in general -- will always want to be on the winner‘s side, even if what is being won is distasteful. When the winner is the world‘s dominant economic and military power, the choice becomes even clearer.

I too opposed the war without UN sanction, and am relieved that Canadian formations are not on the ground in Iraq. I happen to have a friend in the Strathconas, and while he‘d probably jump at the chance to ship out, I‘m glad he wasn‘t asked too. I have no doubt that our personnel on exchange with the US/UK forces will acquit themselves well, and I‘m glad they weren‘t pulled out.

Now that battle has been joined, I hope the coalition forces can produce a speedy and relatively low-cost victory -- both for the troops doing the fighting (on both sides) and the Iraqi people themselves.

It‘s not shockingly "wrong" that countries act out of their own self-interest all the time, it‘s just that in this case I think these three in particular could‘ve picked a better time to change their tunes.
 
Michael,

"Better" is always a matter of interpretation, of course, which is what I think you‘re trying to point out.

Better for the government, which like all governments -- democratic and otherwise -- is focused on staying in power and rewarding those who put up the money to put them there?

Better for the citizenry, who despite being worried about losing their jobs, keeping their kids away from drugs and crime and whether or not their spouse is cheating on them (I‘m deliberately overgeneralizing here), still wants to think that they‘re good people and that their government is similarly made of good people who almost always act in the best interests of all involved?

We can go on and on, here. If countries do always act in just their own best self-interest, then maybe France and Germany don‘t really care now what the US population or government bureaucrats thinks of them -- after all, they‘ve already publicly lambasted US policy at the UN. What do they have to lose? Maybe the PR risk assessment done at the Quai d‘Orsay justified the decision to change tune at this particular time. Maybe the French get some sort of masochistic pleasure out of living up to all the stereotypes created for them by the short-sighted decisions and actions of long-dead politicians, I don‘t know.

From my perspective as an internal communicator for a rather large Canadian company, "better" would have been a clearer statement of the Canadian position on the war right at the beginning (which we did), followed up by a staged series of comments tailored to fit the developments on the ground (which we didn‘t have). As public opinion for the war began to shift (which it has), the statements would continue to evolve until they did all but stop short of endorsing the US‘s unilateral action -- going all the way and ditching our stated support for the UN would cost us too much diplomatic credibility throughout the world. It‘s a very fine line, and fence-sitting is sometimes the best course of action.

However, while I don‘t hold any lasting admiration for Brian Mulroney, I agree with him totally when he stated in an editorial in The Globe and Mail that the Chretian government has guilty of "followship" as opposed to "leadership". While what I proposed in the paragraph above sounds like what has happened, it doesn‘t feel to me that any of it was planned -- it was done on the fly and at the last minute. This is why we often get different statements from different ministers -- they all might‘ve been in the same meeting or conference call, but no one stepped forward to define talking points. I would point my finger of blame straight at the PMO.

I hate p*ssy-footing around delicate subjects, something that constantly gets me in trouble with my boss. I‘m learning, but I don‘t like it. But I guess that‘s life.
 
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