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Mexico’s instability, drug wars, et. al.

Container said:
Really until the standard of living there gets high enough that, while you'd make more in the cartel, you're comfy and concerned about losing what you've got they'll never get anywhere.

Combine huge poverty in a country where you can see the land of milk and honey from your front door with drug money and there really is no solution.

I read another report, can't find it at the moment,  that mexico has a large middle class, with plenty of cell phones and internet.

It also mentiioned that a very rough count of dead people since 2006, was roughly 35,000.

The blog sites are largly used to help locals stay away from hot-spots

Container said:
If they rolled alot of war on drug money out of one budget into cooperative op with the Mexican side there might be a benefit.

But im not entirely sure that the end game supports the cost. Really the best is to choke the crap out of that border.

The Mexicans need to deal with this. Its their corruption, fueled by the American thirst for drugs admittedly, that continues to allow these cartels to operate at the size and visibility they do. They are definitely winning the who's scarier war for peoples minds.

Unless the government rolls up its sleeves and commits itself to a long clash, and their troops can avoid deserting for the sweet money of the cartels, there is no victory.......if they need it I'll deploy to Mexico for 9 months  ;D

You can't put the fault wholly on the Mexican government until Obama, Homeland Security and BATF stop arming rival Mexican factions with thousands of illegal arms, without the approval, or knowledge, of the Mexican government.
I laughed....and then I thought "He can't be serious"....then I went two pages back and I cant believe my eyes.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

What is the strategic value? What was the point? I really dont understand what I read there- where can I find out more about this?
I'd love a tour to Mexico...as a door gunner.

The more you see these places, the more you appreciate Canada...
Having enjoyed a good night's sleep, I really didn't need to discover that idiotic pronouncement from Perry. I can't think of anything that would unite the Mexicans - civil, military, cartels - as one against the Gringos than an uninvented intervention invasion of Mexico.

As for the fence, a few years back my wife and I spent a month in the winter at Mission, TX in a RV park about 2 km from the border. There were a lot of US government helicopters and vehicles patrolling the border. Anyway, we took a river tour of the Rio Grande which in the area is about 200m wide and fairly deep. The Anglo guide worked himself into a rant about the fence that Homeland Security had erected. It was a fair distance inland because the EPA would not allow it to be placed on the river bank as it would restrict wildlife access to the water. Then commercial interests fought having it in the sugar cane fields. In other words, it ended up being sort of like stringing concertina through B Echelon instead of running it in front of the forward companies.
How many "operations" were being conducted to run guns to the drug cartels?


Furiously unraveling


Last Updated: 12:27 AM, October 3, 2011

Posted: 10:34 PM, October 2, 2011

The joke goes that anything named “Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms” ought to be a convenience store instead of an arm of the federal government, but what’s going on in Washington these days with the embattled agency is no laughing matter.

Hardly a week passes now without some revelation about the Obama administration’s complicity in what may yet turn out to be one of the worst and most lethal scandals in American history: Operation Fast and Furious.

In a classic Friday document dump -- a sure sign of an administration with something to hide -- the feds released to congressional investigators a month’s worth of e-mail correspondence in the summer of 2010 between Bill Newell, then head ATF agent in Phoenix, and his friend Kevin O’Reilly, a former White House national-security staffer for North American affairs.

What do you know? Among the e-mails was a photograph of a powerful Barrett .50-caliber rifle that had been illegally purchased in Tucson and recovered in Sonora, Mexico, raising the possibility of a second “gunwalking” program, this one called “Wide Receiver.”

Like Fast and Furious, the ATF-supervised scheme that saw thousands of weapons “walk” across the Mexican border for reasons no one in the Justice Department has yet satisfactorily explained, Wide Receiver was apparently a joint operation that also included the Drug Enforcement Administration, the FBI, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the IRS and the US Attorney’s office.

It’s likely there have been others, in such states as Florida and Indiana.

While the back-channel e-mails don’t explicitly discuss Fast and Furious, they do show the White House’s intense interest in the ATF’s and other federal agencies’ activities in Arizona. In one message, O’Reilly asks Newell whether he can share some information with other officials. “Sure, just don’t want ATF HQ to find out, especially since this is what they should be doing (briefing you)!” comes the reply.

Despite whistle-blower testimony, Newell denies that his agents deliberately facilitated weapons transfers to Mexican drug lords, although he recently admitted in a supplemental statement to Rep. Darrell Issa’s House Committee on Government Reform and Oversight that his July testimony “lacked clarity.”

We’ve also just learned from documents that guns linked to Fast and Furious turned up in El Paso last year -- the first time such weapons have surfaced outside Arizona, where the guns were “released.” A convicted drug felon was allowed to buy 40 AK-47-type rifles, which eventually wound up in Texas.

It’s time for politicians on both sides of the aisle to demand answers from Justice and the White House. Issa and his colleague in the Senate, Chuck Grassley, have been doing yeoman’s work, but there’s only so much they can do without the wind at their backs.

A White House under investigation can delay, slow-walk documents, redact them in the name of national or operational security, and simply refuse to make witnesses available to investigators -- all of which the administration has done. Issa and Grassley had asked to interview O’Reilly before the end September, but the White House says he’s on assignment in the Mideast and thus unavailable.

Short of a special prosecutor -- a move floated by Issa but one that the Justice Department, which is leading its own probe, would likely block -- the only hope we have that the truth will come out is public pressure.

So where are the GOP candidates? Where is a critical mass of journalists and commentators, who should be asking sharp, tough, pertinent questions in the national interest?

By now, it’s clear that the US government is in Fast and Furious up to its ears -- with two, possibly three dead agents and more than 200 dead Mexicans to show for an operation that never had the slightest chance of success.

The only real question is: Why?

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/furiously_unraveling_f6fpYY4OXSJg62rFIrFiUI#ixzz1ZkbsD87I
Now I understand why the left believes Bush would bring down the twin towers, because it's something they would think about doing to further their cause. After all some "sacrifices" have to be made to bring about the true revolution. Dragging up anything Bush did is pure desperation of a administration that is facing it's "Obamagate", at least watergate didn't involve killing people.
Container said:
I laughed....and then I thought "He can't be serious"....then I went two pages back and I cant believe my eyes.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

What is the strategic value? What was the point? I really dont understand what I read there- where can I find out more about this?

Even I can't make this shit up.

Goggle is your friend. Especially when most of the MSM is trying to protect Obama by ignoring it, hoping it will go away.
Problem is the Zeta Cartel is in bed with the government. Some concerned citizens have taken matters into their own hands though. At 41,000 dead war is the proper word to use.

Just friends in Mexico. Everyone knows many provincial governors are in Zeta's pocket, but I hear it goes even higher. Gossip, more reliable than the MSM 9 times out of 10. ;)
Nemo888 said:
Just friends in Mexico. Everyone knows many provincial governors are in Zeta's pocket, but I hear it goes even higher. Gossip, more reliable than the MSM 9 times out of 10. ;)

If you cannot document it, and do not express the facts as only your opinion.....DON'T state them......
GAP said:
If you cannot document it, and do not express the facts as only your opinion.....DON'T state them......

I've heard many news reports and analysis since the violence started increasing that state that the various armed gangs have infiltrated the Federal Police, corrupted local government officials, and in some cases are running towns as their personal fifedoms.

But to extend it to the Mexican Government being in bed with the gangs is quite a leap.
recceguy said:
Citation needed.

The following NPR report from 2010 makes somewhat of a case in support of the statement. Except it's a different cartel.


But I still stand by my previous comment, it is quite a leap to say the whole government is in bed with them. You only need to corrupt the right few and you can run without fear of arrest.
Interesting story on NPR about how US is training Mexican troops based on experiences from Iraq and Afstan.


"We have learned from American officers who have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan," said the corporal, who asked that his name not be used as he is not authorized to speak to the media.

"The Americans suffer from similar types of ambushes in their wars, and have learned how to respond to them in a tight, disciplined way. We apply those techniques to our fight here."
Interesting reads for sure.

I paused and considered that it may be part of any overall strategy where the smaller gangs are "backed" in manner of speaking to offset the influence of the target gang.

Drug dealers do this on a smaller scale- you can expect the smaller dealers to flip and assist in providing info on the largest. Its an exploitable opportunity- but runs the risk of the smaller ones shoring up their little fiefdoms and can get them dug in real good.

This could be going on.....perhaps. The isolation, keeping the zetas from gaining territory, in conjunction with the military/law enforcement moves. Or it could just be corruption....or both....
Nemo888 said:
Just friends in Mexico. Everyone knows many provincial governors are in Zeta's pocket, but I hear it goes even higher. Gossip, more reliable than the MSM 9 times out of 10. ;)

Sorry, hearsay doesn't count. Your source isn't credible. Given your previous posts, your info is suspect. Can't say it's wrong, but you can't prove it right.

The Administration is neck deep in this one, and now, finally, the legacy media is starting to look:


Gunwalker: Fast Leaks, Furious Congressmen

Posted By Bob Owens On October 7, 2011 @ 10:06 am In Uncategorized | 37 Comments

July 5, July 12, July 19, July 26, and August 9, 2010.

These are the dates of weekly memos provided by National Drug Intelligence Center Director Michael Walther to Attorney General Eric Holder. Each was a short document that included information on Operation Fast and Furious, including descriptions [1] of the operation as a multi-agency task force targeting a gun trafficking ring headed by Manuel Celis-Acosta that had purchased “1,500 firearms that were then supplied to Mexican drug trafficking cartels.”

The release of these documents from mid-2010 — and supporting documents from Department of Justice insiders discussing “gunwalking” — has led House Judiciary Committee Chairman Lamar Smith (R-TX) to ask President Obama to appoint a special prosecutor. The special prosecutor would investigate whether or not Attorney General Holder committed perjury when he stated in sworn testimony in March: “ probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks.”

Rep. Raul Labrador (R-ID) yesterday called for Holder to resign [2], and Arizona Senator John McCain is “leaning towards [3]” demanding a special council appointment to investigate.

With the increased attention on the case — including coverage from johnny-come-lately ABC that needed to add a backstory [4] section to get their readers up to speed — the White House and Department of Justice are fighting back, alleging that the growing scandal is nothing [5] but a game of “gotcha” being played by Republicans:

    “Here they go again. Chairman Issa and Senator Grassley can re-package and re-release the same documents every other day and it won’t change the facts: the attorney general’s testimony to both the House and Senate committees has been consistent and truthful,” the department said.

    The department said the “brief” passages were “buried in a few written reports” and did not detail the full extent of the operation.

    “Instead of peddling selectively edited transcripts and distorting questions and answers in some distracting political game of gotcha, these congressional leaders should be focusing their attention on the underlying public safety problem we confront as a nation — that too many guns are being illegally trafficked to Mexico,” the statement said.

It is worth noting: the documents being released are new; the information was not buried, but featured bullet points of weekly summary reports; and there were no “selectively edited” transcripts or “distorted questions.” The DOJ pushback seems rooted in political firefighting, not facts.

Even left-leaning NPR — which seems to doubt Holder’s truthfulness — reported the details of the key question and answer accurately [6]:

    At a hearing in March, California Republican Rep. Darrell Issa asked: “When did you first know about the program officially, I believe, called Fast and Furious? To the best of your knowledge, what date?”

    Holder replied: “I’m not sure the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks.”

Texas Senator John Cornyn blasted President Obama’s forceful defense of his attorney general, claiming [7] that the president was the “the only person left with any confidence” in Holder:

    “It is difficult to believe that after memos were sent to his office, ATF officials briefed Congress on Fast and Furious and it was reported in the media, Mr. Holder still didn’t have knowledge of it, as he claims, for several months,” Cornyn, a San Antonio Republican, said in an emailed statement.

The worst news of the week for Holder and Obama may have come last night. Bill O’Reilly interviewed CBSNews investigative reporter Sharyl Attkisson, who has provided the most dogged mainstream media coverage of the administration’s gun-walking plots. O’Reilly asked Attkisson what caused a White House staffer to scream and curse at her [8] several days ago. Her response left little doubt that more damning revelations are to come [9]:

    Well, I would say there have been some pretty incredible developments in the past week. Also, documents we haven’t even had time to report on all of them. They are very sensitive documents and allegations going around. Many of them we haven’t reported yet because we need to get more confirmation of them.

    But what you see on the surface that we do report in our stories is really only a part of what may be going on and we may be reporting the future when we can get confirmation.

Attkisson may have been alluding to more evidence about Operation Fast and Furious, or perhaps about the nine other alleged gunwalking programs in five states [10] which seem to have been implemented with the singularly practical purpose of getting thousands of weapons into the hands of criminals, both drug cartels and domestic gangs. Using Operation Fast and Furious as a baseline, it is reasonable to assume that if the other gunwalking operations were as productive, the U.S.  may have run between 10,000 and 20,000 guns, enough weapons to outfit an entire U.S. Army infantry division.

If these numbers could be verified, it would prove that the Obama administration is the number one U.S. source of cartel guns.

As if things were not bad enough for the White House, Mike Vanderboegh — one of the bloggers who broke the original story linking ATF gunwalking to Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry’s death — has sources claiming [11] “Obama’s man in the State Department,” (former) Deputy Secretary of State Jim Steinberg, was the State Department operative who helped Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano and the Department of Justice Deputy Attorney General David Ogden formulate the strategy that led to the tactics used in Operation Fast and Furious.

And a follow-up story [12] asserts what many have long suspected: that Gunwalker came about out of a desire to “pad” the Obama administration’s “90-pecent lie [13].”

If evidence can be obtained to support these contentions, then perjury is going to be the least of the worries for those involved. As Dave Gibson at the Examiner notes [14]:

    With the recent revelation that Attorney General Eric Holder knew about the ATF gun smuggling scheme as early as July 2010, which is nearly a year earlier than he claimed before Congress, the question becomes … Is Eric Holder an accomplice to Agent Brian Terry’s murder?

    Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu recently pointed out: “If somebody gives a gun to somebody knowing they’re going to commit murder, guess what we call them? … We call them accomplices.”

Article printed from Pajamas Media: http://pajamasmedia.com

URL to article: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-fast-leaks-furious-congressmen/

URLs in this post:

[1] including descriptions: http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/06/fast-and-furious-docs-reveal-holder-was-given-multiple-detailed-accounts-of-gun-program/

[2] resign: http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/186061-gop-calls-for-holders-resignation-grow

[3] leaning towards: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65350.html

[4] backstory: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/ag-under-fire-over-fast-and-furious-when-did-he-know-about-program/

[5] scandal is nothing: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/06/republicans-say-holder-received-at-least-5-fast-and-furious-memos/

[6] accurately: http://www.npr.org/2011/10/06/141124685/holder-takes-heat-over-fast-and-furious-scandal

[7] claiming: http://blog.chron.com/txpotomac/2011/10/john-cornyn-says-obama-is-only-person-left-with-any-confidence-in-eric-holder/

[8] scream and curse at her: http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/CBS-Holder-Fast-Furious/2011/10/05/id/413372

[9] more damning revelations are to come: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/2011/10/07/white-house-furious-cbs-fast-and-furious-investigation

[10] nine other alleged gunwalking programs in five states: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/05/earlyshow/main20115824.shtml

[11] sources claiming: http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/10/sipsey-street-exclusive-in-at-beginning.html

[12] follow-up story: http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/10/sipsey-street-exclusive-in-at-beginning_07.html

[13] 90-pecent lie: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/testimony-on-assault-weapons-guts-obamas-90-percent-lie/

[14] notes: http://www.examiner.com/drug-cartel-in-national/could-eric-holder-be-charged-as-an-accomplice-to-murder-s
Nemo888 said:
Problem is the Zeta Cartel is in bed with the government. Some concerned citizens have taken matters into their own hands though. At 41,000 dead war is the proper word to use.

I think that is going to end up working like the Batman impostors in The Dark Knight, that is to say mild success ending horribly.