Mickey Mouse Boots or Mukluks?

[Matt_Fisher]

I'm going to be doing the NATO 'Battle Griffin' Ex. in Norway this winter and am starting to assemble my cold weather ops. kit list.

It's been quite some time since I did some serious winter warfare stuff, as the last time I was in similar conditions was in Wainwright Nov-Dec. of '96.   I wasn't ever overly impressed with the CF winter kit, save the mukluks and the snot pads on the mittens.   The parka was too bulky and I never found it to be all that warm.   I did like the winter whites and the ruck cover.   The bindings on the snowshoes were the pinnacle of 1950s technology and were sorely lacking updating with newer straps and buckles as can be found on most commercial snowshoe bindings.  

I'll be getting my winter issue of Marine Corps cold weather kit over the next month or so.   I'm planning on getting a pair of mitts and a windproof balaclava from Outdoor Research, who make some cat's arse gear, so I'm covered in most areas, with the exception of footwear.

The US Extreme Cold Weather Boot is the rubber "Mickey Mouse" boot that is essentially a layer of felt sandwiched in rubber.   From all accounts your feet get pretty sweaty in it pretty quickly, and if you don't change your socks very frequently you stand a very good chance of getting trenchfoot if worn for long periods (such as I will be doing during Battle Griffin).

The mukluks being uncoated fabric and wool liners breath far better and seem to avoid the trenchfoot issue.   However, if you step in water with the CF mukluks and your feet get wet, then you could be in a world of hurt when your mukluks freeze solid.

I know that the CFs are currently looking to replace the mukluks with a new extreme cold weather boot, but for the timebeing, I'm debating getting a pair of mukluks to take in addition to my Mickey Mouses.

Anyone on the board ever use both the Mickey Mouse boots and mukluks and can put forth some feedback as to which works better?

 

[Britney Spears]

<a href=http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/doubleP.htm>This</a>  fellow seems to think well of the mukluks,  and not so well of the US issued stuff. Mind you, he would also like you to wear a skirted parka and a string undershirt.


I preferr the Ugg boot myself

 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Oh oh! ;D Alert, alert

 

[Roger]

The Canadian Armed Forces had a similar boot up until the late 70's. Same problem, feet got wet just from sweating and when you were not moving, after some time your feet would freeze. The mukluks are made for extreme cold, if there is water it is not cold enough, should be at least -10c or 14f. And we also have the old Mark II that you probably wore when you in the forces they are good till about 10c or 50f. For in between we have a gortex lined boot this fits well for the in between. The mits and mukluks have not changed since I first used them in 1972, I remember being in Wainright in January on my winter warfare course and was quite impressed with the kit.

I would bring the mukluks since they are not heavy and wear gortex boots, I think the us military has some sort of cold weather gortex boot.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I think the parka is pretty warm esp. combined with the fleece shirt

 

[chrisf]

Quite. The old parka is designed as part of a clothing system involving layering, including long johns, the combat sweater, and the fleece jacket, just as the new parka includes the new long johns, and the fleec jacket.

 

[Britney Spears]

The Russians have supposedly come out with a material that heats up upon absorbing moisturer, and can be used multiple times by simply drying it out on a radiator afterwards. They are also supposedly making mukluks/valenki with such a lining. Sounds a little fishy but not completely unplausible.

I definetly enjoy the fleece pocket handwarmers on the new parkas and jackets. Such a great simple idea. 

What we really need is a fleece touque. Perhaps 2. A thinner one for use as a helmet liner for chilly autum nights and a thicker one for arctic wear and garrison. Both should also serve as balaclavas.  This is almost as high on my wish list as dermatologist approved, none pore clogging cam paint, but not quite.

 

[axeman]

I've done the exs your talking about  a jan in north norway and also a fall in northern norway , what id recommend for you is to try and find a set of oversized goretex sox that fit over your felt liners for your mucklucks mine are size 14  to fit over a size 9 bootie. it seems to kick A== as in norway it could be snowing up top of the mpountian and the gunners down below were getting rained on ... . it will be a damp ex  thats for sure .

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Brit you can always buy fleece toques.  I had my grandmother knit me a helmet liner based off a WW1 design.  Does well.

 

[Britney Spears]

Brit you can always buy fleece toques.  I had my grandmother knit me a helmet liner based off a WW1 design.  Does well.

But where's the fun in that? and my grandmother's kinda far away right now, unfortunately......

MEC carrys a black fleece skull cap which works perfectly as a helmet liner. It was thin enough so that there was no need to adjust your helmet straps, yet on its own its at least as warm as the issued bobble hat. It's great in winter too, as an extra layer and also to keep off touque head.  Folded up to the size and weight of a pack of kleenex. I always keep it in my webbing (summer too)  It's the best $11 you can give to a Canadian company.

here: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=675115&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=480991&bmUID=1097544799808



Final hijack: Is your palm pilot working now?

 

[Matt_Fisher]

I appreciate the feedback!

What I think I'm going to do is to bring both the Mickey Mouses and mukluks and see which set works best.   It will also be interesting to see if we get issued the US black "cold/wet weather boot" seeing as how the Marine Corps has gone entirely to the Coyote Brown boots and black are no longger authorized for wear.

Britney, the skull cap you use is very similar to the Ice-9 Helmet Liner that OR makes which is perfect for wear under a kevlar or CVC helmet in cold weather, or just on its own instead of a toque.
http://www.orgear.com/home/style/home/headware/cold_hats/windproof_hats/83185

As far as the CF parka goes...I just found it to be too bulky and heavy for the warmth it provided.   Granted when I was in the cotton long underwear was still standard issue, fleece was just starting to come into issue for those going on ops, and the korean war vintage flannel shirt was considered high speed (granted it was very very very good for use as a field/patrol shirt in autumn and early spring).

For clothing I'll be wearing capilene long underwear for my base layer, with a Polartec 100 weight fleece pullover and a set of Polartec 300 pants and jacket for my insulating layers with my Gore-Tex shell jacket and pants as my outer layer.  

For mitts I'll be wearing the OR Vario Mitts (similar to the trigger mitts, but more insulated)
http://www.orgear.com/home/style/home/handtools/gloves/ascent/71830

For mitt liners/contact gloves I'll be using the OR Omni Glove
http://www.orgear.com/home/style/home/handtools/gloves/work_gloves/70080

For facial/head protection from cold air cutting into my face and head while cruising around the frozen landscape in the turret of my LAV-25 I'll be using the OR Windstopper Gorilla Balaclava (is it becoming obvious I'm very partial to Outdoor Research stuff?)
http://www.orgear.com/home/style/home/headware/cold_hats/balaclavas/83990

On my feet I'll have to try both the Mickey Mouse's and mukluks.   For socks I'll use either my SmartWool Mountaineers or my Wigwam Ingenius socks, taking care to change my socks frequently.

Hopefully outfitted as such I'll stave off any cold weather injuries. 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I know guys would die before letting go of their flannel shirts.   The Muckluks are definately a no go in wet snow.   We now also have poly pro underwear as well as the fleece.   The windpants also have some insulation as well.   I tend to wear the parka shell with poly pro shirt and fleece shirt.

Brit yes I got it working.   Thanks for the help.  Thats not you in the pic is it?

 

[Britney Spears]

As far as the CF parka goes...I just found it to be too bulky and heavy for the warmth it provided.  Granted when I was in the cotton long underwear was still standard issue, fleece was just starting to come into issue for those going on ops, and the korean war vintage flannel shirt was considered high speed (granted it was very very very good for use as a field/patrol shirt in autumn and early spring).

The new parka is significantly more form fitting compared to the old one, and  includes sundry gucci features, Including the removable liner, goretex, and of course the handwarmers in cadpat fleece. This is a size 6740 parka, for size comparison. here are some pictures. Note how effective the camoflage pattern would be in the snow. I suppose if i put it on and went to sleep in the ranger blanket they'll never find me.

Funny story: Friend of mine, on his first winter ex, couldn't figure out why his feet were so cold. After getting back, he found that stores had forgotten to issue him insoles for his mukluks.

 

[pappy]

Having been in some mighty cold weather in  Korea and Norway I'd say there are much better choces these days.  The MM are useful boots when compared to the old issued non-water proof combat boots the US used to issue, but only when stationary, they are much too heavy for any long term movement on foot.  Compared to todays modern warerproof insulated boots, well lots of other choices.  I had two choices in Korea (over two different winters) MM boots or the old single layer leather combat boots, we used both at different times.  Good socks and plenty of changes of socks are mandatory.  Todays hi-tech socks are light years over the past.  If your moving around in the MM boots a lot your feet will sweat, once you stop your feet will get cold as hell if you can't dry them out.  MM boots are heavy as hell!  Hard to walk in, becuase you can't feel where your feet go that well.  The sceond year in Korea I took a extra pair of leather boots bigger size to wear more layers of socks.  As it was too cold most of the time to be wet, thier lack of water proofing wasn't a concern. Bigger boots with a couple of pair of socks alowed room to keep your feet moving and warm.

When I went to Norway a few years later I took along a pair of "modern" (as far as 1980 technology could offer) off the shelf waterprrofed insulated boots that appears to look like the issue boots.  No grief from upper ranks as they has some common sense and let it slide for field use.  Beside they sold them at the PX and many of them bought the same ones.  We had to take the MM boots as they part of our Issue cold weather gear, but I never once used them, it was a combo of the Insulated boots in the field and standard issue boots around base camp or for warmer weather humping.  Good socks and my feet where happy campers.  And I still have all my toes....

Matt if you have a chance to before you go I'd highly recommend these peices of kit:  (you can order from stateside mail-order firms, but sometimes cheaper over seas - UK)
One of these 3 will do wonders.
http://www.snugpak.com/codegreen/airpak.php4
or
http://www.snugpak.com/codegreen/pileshirt.php4  (pretty much a copy of the Bullfalo Special 6 shirt)
or
http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/dp3.htm
(don't worry they have OD green too haha)
The buffalo products are amazing stuff, I use them all the time and they are worth thier weight in gold.  For me they work better then plain fleece or windstopper fleece, fleece/goretex.

I have lots of the current issue US cold weather gear, while drastic imporvements over the 1940' - 50's gear we used in the late 70's and 80's, there are still better choices out there.  

The Petex shells are windproof to 50+ mph, poking out the top of the LAV ..... burrr ahd more beatherable and less bulk then wearing Goretex over fleece.

Have fun in Norway Matt!  A beautiful place, blondes as far as the eyes can see  lol

Semper Fi

hell your from Canada, you know cold weather.  But if you got a few extra $$ you'll love this stuff.

 

[Britney Spears]

Matt:

Perhaps you should also consider some kind of scarf or neckwarmer? lIt's a little more protection than just the balaclava, and provides a lot of warmth for its weight.

My grandmother(she mailed it to me) knitted me a wool neckwarmer, essentially a toque with the top open, and is both smaller and better than the issued scarf.

Also, the CF issues a ECW (extreme cold weather) hood.  It looks like a stormtrooper helmet from star wars, made out of the same material as the parka liner. Warmest. hat. ever.  Don't have much prehipheral vision when wearing it, so I'm not sure if you'd want to be wearing it while driving, but it IS issued almost exclusively to armoured crews. 

 

[Big Bad John]

Pappy have you been looking in my kit bag again.  Snugpak's are unofficial cold weather kit for us.  Started using them in the 70's when the Marines (Royal that is) were tasked to defend Norway.  Great links.  I always knew you had to be intelligent!  

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I have yet had a need for the cold weather hood.

 

[pappy]

lol Big John,

I can't take credit for the Sungpak stuff, hell I learned a few things from the Royal Marines I met in Norway, besides the fact I couldn't keep up with them drinking rum.

Norway was where I was introduced the the wonderful kit previded by Mr Brett Harris, LTD.  Wish I had it when I went to Korea, but it's going with me there next year when I visit.

;D
P.S. Still got my Snugpak Softie Sleeka jacket, another good choice Matt.

 

[Britney Spears]

CFL:

What about arctic slippers?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

hardly, I just put on my mucklucks and do my thing.  They don't take up much room but I don't bother, same with the sleeping hood.  Did you get my PM?