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Militarization of Police.

Remius

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Ironman118 said:
That sets a difficult precedent. You'll have more than that PS's riot squad quitting their duties, it'll be country wide. The unit responsible for maintaining public order can't maintain public order, or they'll get fired.  ::)

Question for you.  I know there is no shortage of police applicants here but can the same be said about the US?

Would a bunch of people quitting (I assume they have plans in their back pockets or retirement) not present an opportunity to clean house and bring in new people?  Would the quitting actually achieve what some municipalities are trying to do with renewal?  Some experience might leave but I bet it isn't all experience. 

FYI, I'm not advocating for that but it seems that some municipalities or defund groups would welcome wholesale quitting despite the consequences of that action.

I'm not familiar with what retention is like there.  I know the RCMP here has a bit of a retention issue over pay and work conditions but I don't know what it is over all in Canada.  RCMP seems like a bit of a unique police force  compared to anything else here or in the US though.

 

daftandbarmy

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Ironman118 said:
That sets a difficult precedent. You'll have more than that PS's riot squad quitting their duties, it'll be country wide. The unit responsible for maintaining public order can't maintain public order, or they'll get fired.  ::)

Not really, people will still do their jobs when properly led. And most of the legal precedents I've seen would back the 70 year old (or 20 year old) protester in this situation, at least in the clip I watched on TV.

Most cops are better at knowing the right level of force to use in most circumstances, than most soldiers, in a one on one situation.

What some cops are less good at is knowing how to apply the right level of force in a large group, a.k.a. military style, scenario like a riot squad. You're still accountable for your individual actions despite the fact that you're immersed in a large, ostensibly faceless, group. It's also futile, and somewhat negligent, to hide behind the 'I was all hyped up and feared for my life' defence unless the situation warranted that; you know, like incoming rifle fire.

That's why it's a good idea to train properly for these kinds of things while making sure that your leaders, above all, know how to lead and manage people through chaotic situations like these. What I think we've seen recently is a range of 'readiness' in this regard from not so good, to very good.

Out of interest, here's a (very old) clip of some soldiers doing a good job at managing a riot where they demonstrate controlled aggression, care for uninvolved civilians, good prisoner handling, and generally good overall command and control in a crummy situation. Point to note - I am a big believer in the magical powers of the maroon beret, but you wouldn't catch me in this shot without a proper helmet and face-shield!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdHF_Vjjr1o


 

mariomike

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Ironman118 said:
You'll have more than that PS's riot squad quitting their duties, it'll be country wide.

Remius said:
Would a bunch of people quitting (I assume they have plans in their back pockets or retirement) not present an opportunity to clean house and bring in new people? 

They wouldn't be quitting the job / department. Just that program / team. The only possible financial loss would be if a premium is paid to team members.
 

Remius

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That still brings up the point of playing into defund proponents’ hands. 

Great no more swat team.  Send them all to community policing or airport duty.

Not sure the swat guys really want to do those jobs after being swat or ERT.

I read that in Florida, one town’s swat team resigned en masse and the municipality didn’t even blink given that they had a 10 man team for 38,000 residents, low calls for them and an arrangement with the county to provide that service as needed.  They said they would redirect the funding for that to other services.

Will that work for them? Maybe, maybe not but it seems that quitting teams or the police will just accelerate defunding. 

I don’t think that is realistic for all areas or regions though.

I think reform might be needed instead of defunding.  And yes, it likely means more money for police.  But that’s just me and my couch observation post.
 

mariomike

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I think I see your point, Remius.

For example, TPS has "over 180 uniform and over 300 different civilian job opportunities."

"Uniform" would include all sworn officers, including detectives and plainclothes.

If cities ever start look to seriously "defund", or whatever they call it, the three emergency services could be in for a rude awakening. ie: layoffs, and not replacing members lost to attrition.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Remius said:
Great no more swat team.  Send them all to community policing or airport duty.
Not sure the swat guys really want to do those jobs after being swat or ERT.

Not sure everyone calls it a career after taking down some coloured berets, why would cops be different?
 

Remius

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Bruce Monkhouse said:
Not sure everyone calls it a career after taking down some coloured berets, why would cops be different?

Not sure.  That’s why I ask.  The few tactical team guys I do know weren’t too Keen on going back to anything but Tactical even in the face of getting promoted. 

But my point wasn’t about that. 

More about playing into the defund camp’s hand.
 

Ironman118

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mariomike said:
They wouldn't be quitting the job / department. Just that program / team. The only possible financial loss would be if a premium is paid to team members.

I am aware of that, I meant that there would be no riot squads anywhere. Why do the job when you get fired for doing it? First riot, then your other specialist teams who will now have to step up and perform those duties..

Now what happens when those units are already resigning from their positions for something other than not being able to do their job?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/13/us/florida-hallandale-beach-swat-resignations/index.html

Tick tock.
 

Ironman118

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Remius said:
Question for you.  I know there is no shortage of police applicants here but can the same be said about the US?

Would a bunch of people quitting (I assume they have plans in their back pockets or retirement) not present an opportunity to clean house and bring in new people?  Would the quitting actually achieve what some municipalities are trying to do with renewal?  Some experience might leave but I bet it isn't all experience. 

FYI, I'm not advocating for that but it seems that some municipalities or defund groups would welcome wholesale quitting despite the consequences of that action.

I'm not familiar with what retention is like there.  I know the RCMP here has a bit of a retention issue over pay and work conditions but I don't know what it is over all in Canada.  RCMP seems like a bit of a unique police force  compared to anything else here or in the US though.

I've posted this before and I'll post it again, my replies are basically the same as his.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymznwY2kbEU
 

Jarnhamar

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Getting rid of swat teams or riot control teams is such a ridiculous idea. There's professional rioters and shit disturbers in the US and Canada. Police who are more social worker than fighter are great until a heavily armed person or persons want to go on a rampage. Police need to be prepared for the worst case scenario.


If 50% of the police (or whatever) quit then new applicants will fill those spots. Will those new applicants be good guys and girls who herald in a new era of happy policing? Or will they be people who didn't make the previous cut for fitness/personality issues/MH etc.. who are now in uniform and cut loose.

Big gamble.
 

Remius

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Remius said:
Ok, thanks.  I’ll give it a watch.

Good perspective.  It didn’t answer some questions but I am in agreement with more training.  Not keen on defunding.  Reform costs money. Like it or not.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article243555202.html

More on the SWAT resignations.  A city with 38,000 people, only 8 swat calls in 3 years.  10% of the force on the swat team. 

Regardless of the value of the team, it looks like city council and the police chief are already moving the money somewhere else.

This is what I am getting at in some areas.  Seems the Resignations are just accelerating the defunding.

:dunno:
 

Remius

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Jarnhamar said:
Getting rid of swat teams or riot control teams is such a ridiculous idea. There's professional rioters and crap disturbers in the US and Canada. Police who are more social worker than fighter are great until a heavily armed person or persons want to go on a rampage. Police need to be prepared for the worst case scenario.


If 50% of the police (or whatever) quit then new applicants will fill those spots. Will those new applicants be good guys and girls who herald in a new era of happy policing? Or will they be people who didn't make the previous cut for fitness/personality issues/MH etc.. who are now in uniform and cut loose.

Big gamble.

This is exactly it.  It is a gamble.  But resignations and quitting will only empower the defenders and abolitionists.  That’s what I am trying to get at.
 

mariomike

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Remius said:
More on the SWAT resignations.  A city with 38,000 people, only 8 swat calls in 3 years.  10% of the force on the swat team. 

Regardless of the value of the team, it looks like city council and the police chief are already moving the money somewhere else.

We had SWAT paramedics where I worked. For $1,000 pensionable premium a year, ( that was years ago. Must have increased since then ) they got to wear 77 pounds of extra weight.

On the other hand, they had the coolest tune to get pumped up with when responding,  :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHDg96-ZN_U

Remius said:
Seems the Resignations are just accelerating the defunding.

BINGO

At lot of Special Ops programs took some selling by the Dept. and the unions to the city. Give them up, might be a long time getting them back.

Also, how much solidarity is there in the union? Will members with less seniority fill those vacancies when the others stand down?
 

mariomike

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The NYPD will disband its controversial “anti-crime” units in an effort to make policing more relevant to the communities officers serve. The units have around 600 plainclothes officers working in unmarked cars across the city.
https://www.bkreader.com/2020/06/17/nypd-disbanding-anti-crime-units-involved-in-a-number-of-fatal-shootings/

Doubt if something like the now disbanded LAPD Community Resources Against Street Hoodlums ( CRASH ) unit is what they have in mind,

"We want a uniform presence out on the street. They're flying their colors, we're going to fly ours!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZvatzKVM2g

 

Ironman118

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Remius said:
Good perspective.  It didn’t answer some questions but I am in agreement with more training.  Not keen on defunding.  Reform costs money. Like it or not.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article243555202.html

More on the SWAT resignations.  A city with 38,000 people, only 8 swat calls in 3 years.  10% of the force on the swat team. 

Regardless of the value of the team, it looks like city council and the police chief are already moving the money somewhere else.

This is what I am getting at in some areas.  Seems the Resignations are just accelerating the defunding.

:dunno:

8 calls in 3 years is not bad, for that population..that's a lot. Imagine if uniformed officers turned up for those tactical calls, you'd probably have 8 dead people due to lack of training. You're obviously in favor of defunding, that much is clear. I just hope if specialist units are defunded, you never have need of them.  ;)

Remius said:
This is exactly it.  It is a gamble.  But resignations and quitting will only empower the defenders and abolitionists.  That’s what I am trying to get at.

I mean, it empowers the people quitting the specialist units - because now they arent going to get fired for doing their job. They'll just go back on the road and continue to do patrol  :2c:
 

Remius

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Ironman118 said:
8 calls in 3 years is not bad, for that population..that's a lot. Imagine if uniformed officers turned up for those tactical calls, you'd probably have 8 dead people due to lack of training. You're obviously in favor of defunding, that much is clear. I just hope if specialist units are defunded, you never have need of them.  ;)


No. I never said I was in favour of defunding.  I’ve said as much.  I’m trying to understand all of the elements.  I am in favour of reform and also I think on a case by case basis as all forces likely have their challenges and differences though and in fact I am in favour of more funding to make it happen.

Militarisation is a concern but it isn’t a kit thing, I think it’s a perception and failure to communicate.  And influenced by the US view either by bad television or what we see on the news.

My point in the last few posts is that resignations are accelerating the defunding as opposed to reforming. 

I’m getting a lot from what you and others are posting to get a more informed opinion.  If you feel I’m not I’m sorry and I’ll try and get my info elsewhere.

Thanks.
 

Remius

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Ironman118 said:
Officer who shot Rayshard Brooks convicted with felony murder after suspect resisted arrest during a DUI stop, fought with both officers, stole a tazer, and firing said tazer at the officer.

https://theprovince.com/pmn/news-pmn/politics-news-pmn/atlanta-police-officer-charged-with-murder-in-shooting-death-of-rayshard-brooks/wcm/0357ab2c-bdaa-409c-883b-5a4e67f3a8cc

Also charged with 11 other counts.  A lot charges related to his oath office.  I watched the briefing and a lot of new info came out.  He kicked him in the head after he shot him and two rounds hit a bystander’s car with a driver and passenger.  Part of the charges.  That last part (the head kicking) is what seems to have triggered another protest there.

Facing life to the death penalty.

Initially they said the other officer was going to be a state’s witness but that has changed recently.

The officer’s attorney has released a statement about the taser being pointed at him.  States that he reason to believe ve he was trying to disable and injure or something to that effect.
 

mariomike

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Ironman118 said:
Officer who shot Rayshard Brooks convicted

"Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law".
 
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