Military Compound of Québec, Armoury Lost to Fire

[Douke]

The plaque definitly needs to be rebuilt, for the memories of brave soldiers from Quebec who died in a forgotten part of WW2. The defense of Hong Kong was brutal and hopeless, even more since they had given all their vehicles for the US advance in the Phillipines, but they still fought for days and days. Since 1965, we are very proud to count their history of bravery and honour among ours. I would be crushed if the rebuilding of this plaque was forgotten.

 

[Yrys]

The fire sprinkler was turned off for repairs for a few day after reparations on the roof structure and wooden ceiling... Murphy's law at it's finest.

In a french article they are saying that there weren't any sprinkler : "Pas encore de gicleurs en 2008" .

Le chantier n’était pas surveillé

Sur ce point, le militaire précise simplement qu’il «faut fonctionner à l’intérieur de budgets, qu’il y avait d’autres manèges au pays sur la liste et que la priorité était cette fois donnée aux Voltigeurs».

The military man that was answering questions seems to imply that Québec isn't the only place without sprinklers, it was it's turn on the priority list to instal some.
I hope the next ones on that list learned something from it, and add security that the contractors don't seem to have put in place...

 

[geo]

Yrs... you should not take everything that the media is publishing for $$Cash.

I should point out that, I am surprised that there was no Cadet or Reserve training in the armoury on a Friday night.  All armouries I have been associated with are busy on Friday nights...

At present there are no armouries that have personnel on staff 24/7 - 365 days of the year.
Before the installation of elaborate alarm systems & secure arms rooms we had commissionaires 24/7 365 days per year but, as labour costs went up - it wasn't a viable alternative.

With respect to "chantier pas surveillé" that is not 100% true.  During the day, while the work was being done by the plumbers, there was "surveillance" but, once the plumbers and welders had left for the weekend, so did the clerical staff.

 

[Douke]

Exactly.

And as for the training, there was training going on, but all the troops were at BFC Valcartier.

 

[exgunnertdo]

Geo, what is refered as regimental colours is the drums of the "drums and bugles". Since rifle regiments were not carrying any flag, their battle honors were carried on their head dress at first, then on their drums. In 1981 the drums were consacrated and are since then considered as the regiment's colors, even if it is unorthodox (we are the only regiment in the world whose colors are on their drums).

I do know that the Royal Winnipeg Rifles colours are their drums.  Not sure about other Rifle Regiments.

 

[Douke]

All rifles regiments carry their battle honours on their drums, but to my knowledge we are the only one that had his drums officially consacrated as colours (I might be wrong).

Douke

 

[Blindspot]

According to British tradition, Rifle regiments do not have Colours; kind of goes against the concealment and camouflage ethos with flags waving around the battlefield infront of line regiments. Battle Honours are emblazoned on drums.

However, I won't presume to disagree about Les Voltigeurs de Québec as to whether or not they have Colours.

 

[armyvern]

Their website is even confusing me. Perhaps I am losing myself in attempting to translate it.

http://www.voltigeursdequebec.net/index2.html

After explaining exactly what Blindspot has noted below,

Para two seems to me to end with an "although emblazoned with battle Honours, drums are not to be considered "Regimental Colours"."

Yet, the 3rd para says: "However, in 1981, the drums were consecrated and since then are considered to be the colours of the regiment."

I'm obviously missing something here with my feeble attempts at parlez-vousing.

Can someone bilingual actually translate this out properly??  :-[

 

[Yrys]

I'm obviously missing something here with my feeble attempts at parlez-vousing.

Can someone bilingual actually translate this out properly??  :-[

I can try, no guarantee, considering my lack of military knowledge (vocabulary)

Which page exactly ? Clairons et Tambours ? I'll do a cut and space in an automatic translator, and will correct it

WORK IS STOP

Il faut d’abord préciser ici que les régiments de carabiniers n’ont pas de « Couleurs Régimentaires » à proprement parler. Les drapeaux consacrés représentant les Couleurs de l’unité pour l’infanterie et le blindé ne furent jamais portés par les régiments de carabiniers. La fonction originelle de ces drapeaux était d’être facilement visible et reconnaissable et ainsi servir de point de ralliement pour les troupes. Ceci ne correspondait pas du tout au besoin de camouflage des carabiniers ni à leurs tâches d’escarmouche et de reconnaissance en petits groupes éloignés.

It is necessary to clarify at first here that the rifles regiments have no "Regimental Colours" strictly speaking. Dedicated flags representing the Colors of the unit for the infantry and the armored  were never worn by the rifles regiments. The original function  of these flags was to be easily visible and recognizable and so to serve as assembly point for the troops. This corresponded in no way to the need of camouflage of the riflemen or to their tasks of skirmish and recognition in small remote groups.

Les unités d’infanterie de ligne utilisaient également leurs drapeaux afin d’y afficher leurs honneurs de bataille. Les unités de carabiniers portaient quant à elleS ces honneurs sur leur insigne de coiffure, puis sur leurs tambours. Toutefois, comme mentionné précédemment, les tambours des carabiniers, même blasonnés d’honneurs de batailles, ne sont pas des « couleurs régimentaires ».

The infantry units  also used their flags to show their battle Honours . The riflemen units  wear, as for them, these Honors on their hat badge, then their drums. However, as mentioned previously, the drums of the riflemen, even emblazoned with battle Honours, are not  " Regimental Colors ".

Notons ici que les Voltigeurs de Québec ont longtemps respecté la tradition des carabiniers de porter au moins un honneur de bataille sur l’insigne de coiffure. Il s’agissait de la date 1885 qui rappelait la campagne du Nord-ouest, premier honneur de bataille du régiment. L’inscription 1885 fut enlevé de l’insigne dans les années 1980 car certains disaient que cette date portait à confusion avec la date de fondation du régiment, soit 1862. De plus, en 1981, les tambours furent consacrés et sont depuis ce moment, considérés comme étant les couleurs du régiment.

Let us note here that the Quebec Voltigeurs  respected for a long time the tradition of the riflemen to wear at least a battle Honours on the hat badge. It was about the date 1885 which reminded the campaign of the Northwest, the first battle Honours of the regiment. The inscription 1885 was removed on the badge in the 1980s because some people said that this date was confused with the date of the foundation of the regiment, which is 1862. Furthermore, in 1981, drums were dedicated and are since this moment, consider as being the Colors of the regiment.

I would say that the drums are not official regimental colours, but since dedication, by custom, are considered being it.

 

[armyvern]

I can try, no guarantee, considering my lack of military knowledge (vocabulary)

Which page exactly ? Clairons et Tambours ?

I thought that I did link to the specific page:

Your above, then "Explication des Couleurs"

"Le terme « Couleurs régimentaires » "

 

[Yrys]

Does "hat badge" for "insigne de coiffure" make sense ?

 

[Douke]

Ok I am bilingual, I just came back form a long guard shift of the ruins of the military compound so I will just explain basicly, and can translate it integrally later tomorow if needed.

In the first paragraph, they are talking about rifles regiments in general (by the way, carabinier = rifle, as weird as it sounds since rifleman usually translates as fusilier). They say that rifles regiments carry their battle honors on their drums, but that they do not constitute regimental colours officially (colours have to be consacrated as such). In the third paragraph, they are talking specifically about Les Voltigeurs, and are saying that the regiment had their drums consacrated as colours in 1981. So rifles regiments do not have colours because flags were not consequent with the concealment tactics of rifles, but Les Voltigeurs do have colours since 1981, because their drums were consacrated. So we are the only unit in the world using drums as colours (even though other rifles regiment have their battle honors on their drums) and the only rifles regiment to have colours. As to why we were awarded that kind of honor, I honestly have no idea yet... I hope this is clearer then my previous post, I am also struggling with my English  .

Douke

 

[George Wallace]

No, you are not the only Regiment to have Drums as Colours.  There is a ceremony, Stacking of the Drums, that is carried out by many regiments.  This would be done for the Consecration of the Drums, and also to make a base for the Colours in other units that have flags, standards or guidons as Colours.  The RCD Stack the Drums when they consecrate their new Guidon, for example.

 

[armyvern]

No, you are not the only Regiment to have Drums as Colours.  There is a ceremony, Stacking of the Drums, that is carried out by many regiments.  This would be done for the Consecration of the Drums, and also to make a base for the Colours in other units that have flags, standards or guidons as Colours.  The RCD Stack the Drums when they consecrate their new Guidon, for example.

I think he's speaking strictly to rifle regiments George. ??

 

[Edward Campbell]

As briefly as I can:

+ Rifle Regiments do not have colours because, circa 1800, they were skirmishers and a stand of colours would have defeated the purpose;

+ Rifle Regiments had (some still have?) their battle honours on their cap badges;

+ Some (most? all?) Rifle Regiments carry their battle honours on their silver drums, when are then escorted on parade rather like colours; but

+ Many regiments do things at drumhead services where ordinary band drums are stacked to form a makeshift alter.

So some drums are de facto 'colours' because hey have the regiment's battle honours emblazoned on them; other drums are just that but they are, now and again, used as makeshift alters on parade.

 

[geo]

George...
Stacking of the drums is a ceremony whereby a unit would create an altar upon which they could proceed with a religious service that required a platform.... typically the consecation of colours - but not necessarily exclusive to that end.

WRT drums as colours.... ALL Rifle regiments use their drums, emblazoned with their battle honours as a FORM OF COLOURS - but they are not considered, per the various ceremonial manuals, "regimental colours".  That the Voltigeurs decided to have their drums consecrated creates a bit of a wrinkle in the ointment - not sure what DHH will make of that.

WRT Voltigeurs, Fusiliers, Carabiniers, etc... thing that Douke brought up - it's a bit of a problem with the terminology that is / was used in both languages. 
FRENCH                              ENGLISH
Voltigeurs & Carabiniers are Riflemen
Fusiliers                        are Light Infantrymen

 

[Michael OLeary]

While a unit may treat its drums as their Colours, that in itself does not imply that they have such an official status.  Can anyone provide an update to this reference, or provide another officially published (i.e., CF) reference regarding any unit's drums being accorded the status of Colours?:

THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CANADIAN FORCES
pp 5-1-3

c. ...(rifle regiments have no Colours as their original tactical role precluded them from carrying and using Colours on the battlefield). (See Note below.)

NOTE

The drums of rifle and voltigeur regiments are not Colours, although they may be emblazoned with battle honours and honorary distinctions. Drums shall not be paid compliments. (See also Chapter 4, Annex A.)

 

[geo]

Michael... As I stated in my last post - while drums are NOT traditionaly considered COULOURS in the traditional sense of colours, Rifle units (aka Voltigeurs) have traditionaly emblazoned on their drums, their Battle Honours - ( like most Infantry regiments have done ).

The fact that the Voltigeurs went out and had their Drums consecrated is a wrinkle that DHH will take considerable time to digest and comment upon - probably to the negative - but, the Unit has done so & they treat them as such.... so common courtessey would be to "make way for the Colours" if they happen to come your way.

 

[Douke]

Honestly, I coud not find written documentation within the CF on this subject. That kind of lore is passed down by the regiment's seniors. The best I could do is this :

Link :
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20080405/CPACTUALITES/80405083/0/CPACTUALITES

Le sauvetage des couleurs du Régiment, vendredi soir, en plein incendie, est ce qui réconforte son ancien commandant, le lieutenant-colonel Yvan Lachance. Un adjudant-chef et quelques soldats sont entrés dans le manège et ont grimpé au troisième étage avec les pompiers pour récupérer les couleurs, a-t-il relaté.
«Les couleurs c’est sacré pour un Régiment, c’est son honneur. Les couleurs priment sur le drapeau national, car elles représentent les soldats qui ont donné leur vie. Même la Reine doit les saluer. Les couleurs des Voltigeurs, le premier régiment francophone, sont sur des tambours, et non sur un drapeau. Il y en a cinq au total et ces tambours ont été sauvés vendredi.»
Selon lui, les Voltigeurs sont le seul régiment au monde dont les couleurs sont gravées sur un tambour. De plus, le drapeau du Régiment, situé entre les deux tours principales du Manège, a échappé aux flammes et a été récupéré fièrement par un jeune soldat.

Traduction at the best of my abilities :

The saving of the regiment's colours, friday night, during the fire, is what is comforting it's old commander, lieutenant colonel Yvan Lachance. A chief warrant officer and a few soldiers went in the compound and went to the third floor with the firemen to save the coulours, he was telling.
"The colours are sacred for a regiment, they are it's honor. The colors precede the national flag, because they represent the soldiers who gave their life. Even the Queen must salute them. The Voltigeur's colors, the first French speaking regiment in Canada, are on drums, and not on a flag. There are five of them and they were saved friday."
According to him, the Voltigeurs are the only regiment in the world whom colors are engraved on a drum. A regimental flag, situated among the two principal towers of the compound, was proudly saved from flames by a young soldier.

Granted I would not win a lawsuit with that kind of proof, but it is at least indicative that it is highly present in regiment's lore even at the highest level. I would be surprised ( and shocked  ) if it was not true.

Douke

 

[geo]

The Cyberpresse extract is basicaly reporting / repeating what has been told to the reporter... nothing more nothing less.
It says that the regimental flag that was flying between the twin towers was brought down by a young soldier - they are refering to the "camp flag" which - pert much every military unit has.

With respect to the drums as Colours - the reporter is saying what we have all said... the Unit treats it's drums as colours and colours are ... yada, yada, yada... The set of five drums were salvaged / saved from the flames.  The Voltigeurs is the oldest (first) french reserve unit still in existence....