Military pushes overhaul of medal system

[Eye In The Sky]

Ack, mine was in reply to Otis's post earlier... 8)..again, not meant to start a downward spiral or chuck crap...

From a Navy perspective, one of the dissatisfier's has been overall days away from home.

Someone who goes away to an Operational area for six months (180 days) gets a medal, while someone else who spends over 250 days away from home (non-consecutive ... i.e. 4 month tour overseas, 3 month exercise, 2 more months on a Soverignty Patrol) recieves nothing more than a few days off here and there.

Arguments can be made for potential danger level etc...and I'm not making any argument either way, I'm just adding another cause of dissatisfaction with the current system.

Otis

Sorry if there are spelling errors ... the spell check won't work on my DWAN computer!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm going to step in here before things get out of hand.

If you wish to discuss the pros & cons like adults, this is the place. If your main talking point is 'You knew what you signed up for" or "I deserve it more than them", the whining post is out back and not on this forum.

Further posts not in line with the protocol may be removed without warning or explanation.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Mick]

"Defence sources say one of the key proposals is the creation of an overseas service medal, similar to the Volunteer Service Medal given to Canadian soldiers who served at least 18 months away from home during the Second World War."

To me, the above quotation reads as if overseas missions / operations will continue to be recognized with their own medals, in addition to the awarding of a general  "overseas service" medal which would also recognize overseas missions / operations not otherwise recognized by a medal.

Maybe an overseas service medal would not replace mission-specific medals , maybe it would supplement them, in order to fill gaps in the current system?  Anyways, that's just how I interpereted the article.

 

[basrah]

In my opinion, I think that after 2011 we will be doing a lot more UN / NATO old school peacekeeping style missions. ( I know ISAF is NATO, but I am refering to the Bosnia days here.) So there will be plenty of coloured ribbons to go around.

As for the creation of another overseas general medal, all I want to know is:why bother? Yes, in WW2 there was a volunteer medal, but to compare Afghanistan and WW2 is... well, just right out of 'er. Times were different, the war was different, and the danger level was much higher. I feel that the more medals we create, the more we are encouraging the 'I was there, I did (insert blank). I can surely guess that thinking like this is why we got rid of that combat action badge. Everyone wants a piece of the glitter and gold.

 

[George Wallace]

As for the creation of another overseas general medal, all I want to know is:why bother? Yes, in WW2 there was a volunteer medal, but to compare Afghanistan and WW2 is... well, just right out of 'er. Times were different, the war was different, and the danger level was much higher. I feel that the more medals we create, the more we are encouraging the 'I was there, I did (insert blank). I can surely guess that thinking like this is why we got rid of that combat action badge. Everyone wants a piece of the glitter and gold.

Your logic is shortsighted and faulty.

WW II was a completely different war from WW I.  WW I was a completely different war from the war fought a decade earlier in South Africa.

We have gone from newbies getting tired of Germany and Cyprus stories, to newbies being tired of Somalia and Rwanda stories, to newbies being tired of Bosnia and Kosovo stories, and soon, believe it or not, newbies who will be tired of hearing Afghanistan stories.  It is the nature of the beast.  It is the "Your course was not as hard as my course" type of reasoning that we see every day in our jobs. 

Here, we find a few have refined their focus onto 'medals'.

 

[armyvern]

To me, the above quotation reads as if overseas missions / operations will continue to be recognized with their own medals, in addition to the awarding of a general  "overseas service" medal which would also recognize overseas missions / operations not otherwise recognized by a medal.

Maybe an overseas service medal would not replace mission-specific medals , maybe it would supplement them, in order to fill gaps in the current system?  Anyways, that's just how I interpereted the article.

Uhmmm, isn't that why we have this medal?

The link includes a listing of it's "currently authorized" bars (such as "Pakistan 1989-1990") - nothing says additional bars can't be authorized for upcoming future missions/assignments. Our current Honours & Awards system thus already allows for what you have described above ...

 

[Gunner98]

The risk with the 'who needs recognition, I don't!' mentality is as you weather, age and climb the ladder, you will wonder why you should recognize and reward your subordinates.  A culture rich with honours and awards maintains the history, traditions and respect for our profession of arms.

 

[Jammer]

Sooooo,
Would this gong cover 2RCR who have yet to be recognized for Haiti...or not?

 

[armyvern]

Sooooo,
Would this gong cover 2RCR who have yet to be recognized for Haiti...or not?

Retro-active awarding??

An interesting concept - would this medal thus then be retro-actively replacing the other medals awarded for overseas service since 2004 ... (all overseas service??) or owuld it be discriminatory and allow those who've recd GCS', GCMs & SWASMs in the interim to keep those original medals.

I highly suspect, that should a single medal be developed to recognize "all" overseas service, that any motion to "retroactively" award it to only "some" (IE Haiti, NEO: Lebanon Evac, DART: Turkey etc) of those overseas missions rather than "all" missions overseas which occured during the same time period would cause quite the uproar.

If this article is accurate - it doesn't matter what they do - it's going to cause a shitstorm.

 

[Jammer]

...a simmering fiasco a la CAB.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Then there is the online petition that just got started for volunteering to serve, period.

http://www.gopetition.com/online/29996.html

Although online petitions seldom, if ever, rate any sort of recognition from the government.

 

[basrah]

Your logic is shortsighted and faulty.

WW II was a completely different war from WW I.  WW I was a completely different war from the war fought a decade earlier in South Africa.

We have gone from newbies getting tired of Germany and Cyprus stories, to newbies being tired of Somalia and Rwanda stories, to newbies being tired of Bosnia and Kosovo stories, and soon, believe it or not, newbies who will be tired of hearing Afghanistan stories.  It is the nature of the beast.  It is the "Your course was not as hard as my course" type of reasoning that we see every day in our jobs. 

Here, we find a few have refined their focus onto 'medals'.

No, my logic is just fine. WW2 was completely different than any other war, as was WW1, and both were far more dangerous than anything we will face in modern days. Canadians didnt have to go, but they did, and for that they deserved a volunteer medal. If you joined up during these times, you were going to war. That is not the case since those days, with the potential exception of Korea.

These days, you can join an infantry unit, regular, or reserve, and if you really dont want to go overseas, there are usually ways out of it. Postings, the Padre, or whatever, if you dont want to go, you can get out of it most of the time.

Hey, why dont we just adopt the US system while we are tossing out medals. That way everyone can know you passed basic training, didnt get in trouble for a whole year, or any number of of strange things they give out ribbons for. While we are at it, lets standardize our head dress, just like the medals. No more unit insignia, after all, that may suggest that one person had done more than another.

 

[Haggis]

The risk with the 'who needs recognition, I don't!' mentality is as you weather, age and climb the ladder, you will wonder why you should recognize and reward your subordinates.

An attitude that was pervasive in the pre-Bosnia days.

I was once told by a Major I worked for that I had been recommended for an award for service at Oka/Akwesasne (he never told me what, though).  He told me he stopped it from going higher because "we don't reward our people for doing what's expected of them and, at your rank (I was a junior WO) we expect the very best".

Am I bitter?  Nooooo!

 

[Jammer]

basrah.

History 101
WW 1 Canada was firmly entrenched in the Commonwealth...ergo if Great Britain went to war Canada did as well, no questions.

Life 101
Hot metal flying at you from all directions is inherently dangerous no matter what the conflict.

Attitude 101
If you don't like it...get out.

 

[gwp]

The goal of the Special Service Medal and the General Service Star and Medal was to have one medal for multiple actions.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhr-ddhr/chc-tdh/chart-tableau-eng.asp?ref=SSM

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhr-ddjr/chc-tdh/chart-tableau-eng.asp?ref=GCS

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhr-ddjr/chc-tdh/chart-tableau-eng.asp?ref=GSM

It will be interesting to see what they are going to do that is new and different and accepted as fair by all concerned. The staff who are running with this are very thorough and thoughtful. On the other hand there is a political aspect to this as they respond to presures from Members of Parliament who receive complaints from constituents who feel that because they were one day short of the criteria or the plane didn't land they should still be eligible for the award.

Defence sources say one of the key proposals is the creation of an overseas service medal, similar to the Volunteer Service Medal given out to Canadian soldiers who served at least 18 months away from home during the Second World War. 

This not particularly novel. The trick will be determining the length of time and whether domestic support of the operation will apply or not. (i.e. with or without a clasp) The Canadian Volunteer Service Medal for WWII

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group04/cvsm

and the Korea Volunteer Service Medal are the precedents for such an award. The KVSM does not have a clasp and was retroactive 35 years (1991) after the fact when Korea Vets lobbied for the award.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group04/cvsmfk

A similar EBGO (Every bloke got one) is the WWI Service and Victory Medal
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group03/bwm

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group03/vm18

and the WWII Commonwealth War Service Medal.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group04/wm45

The "Sacrifice Medal" which has been discussed here at length seemed to be an attempt to do too much. It became political as individuals complained about retroactivity, its place alongside or instead of the wound stripe, and the definition of "in the face of an enemy". For the person who is deemed ineligible those all seem very subjective decisions in a circumstance where no malice is intended.

http://www.gg.ca/honours/medals/hon04-sm_e.asp

No matter what ... when it comes to Orders, Decorations and Medals, it is impossible to please everyone a condition that has become more difficult in a culture of entitlement.

 

[George Wallace]

Hey, why dont we just adopt the US system while we are tossing out medals. That way everyone can know you passed basic training, didnt get in trouble for a whole year, or any number of of strange things they give out ribbons for. While we are at it, lets standardize our head dress, just like the medals. No more unit insignia, after all, that may suggest that one person had done more than another.

The American Awards System is different from ours.  The Americans may have a lot of "Ribbons", however, not all of them are "medals".

 

[basrah]

basrah.

History 101
WW 1 Canada was firmly entrenched in the Commonwealth...ergo if Great Britain went to war Canada did as well, no questions.

Life 101
Hot metal flying at you from all directions is inherently dangerous no matter what the conflict.

Attitude 101
If you don't like it...get out.

Thread 101
Stay on topic.

I may be new around here, but dont attempt to preach to me about attitude or experience in the military. I am not here to boost my ego, or make myself feel better about my service.

The biggest problem, and Im sure Ill get flak for this, is those who deserve medals get them or they dont, but they know they did a good job and dont need a stupid piece of cloth to tell them they did a good job, those who dont deserve them get jealous because they feel left out and dont share the same sense of self satisfaction.




Can someone just lock this thread... it is going nowhere

 

[the 48th regulator]

Thread 101
Stay on topic.

I may be new around here, but dont attempt to preach to me about attitude or experience in the military. I am not here to boost my ego, or make myself feel better about my service.

The biggest problem, and Im sure Ill get flak for this, is those who deserve medals get them or they dont, but they know they did a good job and dont need a stupid piece of cloth to tell them they did a good job, those who dont deserve them get jealous because they feel left out and dont share the same sense of self satisfaction.




Can someone just lock this thread... it is going nowhere

Brother,

You are feeling the same as anyone who has served.

Come here after you have left.  Then I want you to review what you have said.

I have posted my views on medals.  And I will say this.  Your views are bang on, for someone wearing the chaps, six shooter and poncho.

But don't judge those of us that have left the range.

Trust me, once you have left the life, your views will change.

dileas

tess

 

[1feral1]

WW2 was completely different than any other war, as was WW1..... Canadians didnt have to go, but they did,

Lest we forget that conscription was in Canada during both wars.

All war is dangerous regardless of the time, only the technology improves as time advances, and lessons learned also.

OWDU

 

[Michael OLeary]

Lest we forget that conscription was in Canada during both wars.

But, lest we mislead those who haven't researched it, it was not general conscription and it was not in effect throughout either war.

First World War

Taken on strength units in France 24,132

http://regimentalrogue.com/rcr_great_war_soldiers/rcr_and_the_msa.html

Second World War

Few conscripts saw combat in Europe: only 2463 men reached units on the front lines. Out of these, 79 lost their lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_Crisis_of_1944

And, to keep the thread on its original topic.  Those who served under the Military Service Acts received the same medals as those who volunteered.