MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS

[ModlrMike]

PPCLI Guy, Edward... I would take it one step further: more immediate comms has a detrimental effect on efficiency.

We've cluttered the daily battle space with so much information that we're reduced to picking fly sh!t out of pepper.

Some of us have so much traffic in our inboxes, that it takes an inordinate amount of time to find and respond to what's really important, as opposed to what the various senders think is important... because everything is sent with high priority.

I'm the LogO for a unit of 150 part timers. There's no way I'm sufficiently important to have 100 emails between tuesday and thursday, let alone the mountain that accumulates over the weekend. All of which need to be responded to immediately.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Ok I'm not 100% certain but it really seems like you guys are trying to be lower deck lawyers.

Why is that the default for anyone who says "show me the policy"?  The same people who tend to use that term are also usually the ones who point to NES policy, etc.  It has to cut both ways;  the CofC can't haul out the Regs at when it works in their favour, but refuse to take the same regs into consideration when dealing with subordinates. 

Have you honestly never been employed by a high readiness unit which requires you to be contactable?

Yup, I have been for years now and, back in yester-year I was also a Cl A type.  It's comparing apples to bowling balls.  Cl A folks are just that, Cl A - they are not high ready (because the reality is, if you call them, they don't have to answer the phone).  I am on high ready (deployment) and I also hold standby on weekends when I'm not away.  I don't have the option to not answer my cell.  They don't get the pay, vacation, benefits and other stuff we get with our Reg Force TOS.  If I'm not on the Standby crew on a Friday when I leave the Sqn, the next expected timing I have is 0800 Monday morning.  I can go to "anywhere in Canada" without a leave pass - heck I don't even have to tell anyone I am going anywhere, I don't have to answer my phone if it rings, I don't have to be at my home because when I left my unit, my next timing was...Monday at 0800.  I'm Reg Force, still receiving my pay and benefits but I am not "on duty".  Why would you or anyone expect more from a Cl A reservist, and if you are, is that really fair to them?

The Cl A reserve world is a 'part time' job, and the system is set up so people can make some training, and miss some.  They are class A so they can decide what they want to attend and what one to say "F that" to.  If they don't show up, they also don't get paid.  That's just how that ball bounces, and it tends to be in the Cl A reservists court vice their CofCs.

 

[medicineman]

Yeah, used to annoy me somewhat when I was a Class A - I'd answer emails periodically, usually on my days off from my real job.  Funnily enough, the ones that were the worst/most annoying were generated by Reg Force HQ cubicle dwellers who had never worked a day in the civilian sector and couldn't understand that I couldn't just drop what I was doing  to go on a course or exercise or overseas gig without significant planning and forethought, not to mention the concurrence from the people that actually pay me my salary (as opposed to my coffee money). 

One less thing to worry about now...

MM

 

[Haggis]

This thread/poll has generated a lot more traffic than I anticipated and this is good.  The view points expressed here all point to the same thing.  Immediate comms do not equal more efficiency.

I was PPCLI Guy's Ops WO "back in the day".  Things were simpler when your Bde (Militia District) had to actually put thought into what they were asking for because it would take considerable manual effort and valuable time to generate a return.  And, for those same reasons, they had to forecast their information/data needs and be very prescriptive in what they were asking for.

Now, HQs have become accustomed to being able to generate returns on a quick cycle due, mostly, because technology makes information and statistics easy to obtain, collate and transmit.  This starts right at the top with HQs who do "deep dives" into units to gain information on how XXX is performing or staff check on YYY to see if it's a feasible COA.  In the past, staff officers would have to use their experience and judgement  to determine that because commanders would take a staff officers assessment at face value and not demand that the assessment be shown to be based on detailed analysis and data derived from deep dives and RFIs.  This, in my mind, is symptomatic of a risk averse organization where decisions are subject to "retro-analysis".

Please keep answering the poll and, more importantly, post your stories of how this has worked/not worked for you and your unit.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Ok I'm not 100% certain but it really seems like you guys are trying to be lower deck lawyers.

Have you honestly never been employed by a high readiness unit which requires you to be contactable?

That's not an answer to my request.

In regards to your second off topic question. Yes. No one had phones, even at home.

 

[Lumber]

That's not an answer to my request.

In regards to your second off topic question. Yes. No one had phones, even at home.

Why is that the default for anyone who says "show me the policy"?  The same people who tend to use that term are also usually the ones who point to NES policy, etc.  It has to cut both ways;  the CofC can't haul out the Regs at when it works in their favour, but refuse to take the same regs into consideration when dealing with subordinates. 

All the time.  But how is this a matter of trying to be a pseudo lawyer? 

Ok, I get it now. You guys just misunderstood what I was saying, so I probably wasn't being clear enough.

I wasn't saying that everyone has to have a phone, nor was I saying that everyone (including class-A reservists) needs to answer their phones (if they have them).

Recceguy said that the number they had on file for him in the unit's nominal roll lead to a disconnected number.

I said, the chain of command has every right to ask you what your contact information is. If all you have is an address and no phone or email, that's fine, but you have to tell them. If you simply refuse, to tell them your address, phone number, or a reliable email if that's all you have, I think a CO would have grounds to  charge. Further, you can't lie about what your contact information is. If you don't want to give them your phone number, but they insist, and so you give them a fake number, I believe that could also lead to a charge.

Not everything needs a reference to back it up; a lawful order by the CO is any order that is neither manifestly unlawful (murder, rape, theft), nor specifically prohibited by regulations. It's the actual lack of a reference to the contrary that makes the CO order lawful. Source: this is exactly what my local AJAG described to me.

 

[Lumber]

PPCLI Guy, Edward... I would take it one step further: more immediate comms has a detrimental effect on efficiency.

We've cluttered the daily battle space with so much information that we're reduced to picking fly sh!t out of pepper.

Some of us have so much traffic in our inboxes, that it takes an inordinate amount of time to find and respond to what's really important, as opposed to what the various senders think is important... because everything is sent with high priority.

I'm the LogO for a unit of 150 part timers. There's no way I'm sufficiently important to have 100 emails between tuesday and thursday, let alone the mountain that accumulates over the weekend. All of which need to be responded to immediately.

(ModlrMike, I don't know how I'm only realizing now that you're Navy working for an NRD. )

For everyone else, I agree there's too much information; I'm constantly filling out spreadsheets and submitting reports to HQ for readiness levels for everything (medical, C7, 404, dental, ID, Trailering, TDGC, FORCE, security clearances, et), reprot for HISB training, for employment equity training, to ethics training, etc... they want to know about and track everything!

But, I would also say it's not just information overload, but also tasking overload. Let me explain.

Earlier I said I had to learn when to send to people's civilian emails vs their military emails. If it could wait 2 days, I would send to their civilian emails... but not always! The Class-A department heads only have so much time on tuesday/thursday night to deal with all of the projects they've been assigned, and on top of that they have department meetings, head of department meetings, maybe there's a promotion parade, maybe their's a guest speaker, maybe there's the annual ethics brief or annual security brief that night (shit that reminds me, we never did those last year...). So when I'm deciding to send it to their military emails because it's not time sensitive, I also ask myself, while he actually have any time at all on Thursday to read and address this issue? Maybe it will get read but not actioned, and then he'll forget about it over the weekend, and then it will get lost in his inbox by the time he comes in next.

So, in these cases I might send it to his civilian email; not because it's time sensitive, but because I know there's so much on his plate, and so much that going to happen during the next training/admin night, that the only way I think it will actually get taken care of is if it gets sent to his civilian email.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Ok, I get it now. You guys just misunderstood what I was saying, so I probably wasn't being clear enough.

I wasn't saying that everyone has to have a phone, nor was I saying that everyone (including class-A reservists) needs to answer their phones (if they have them).

Recceguy said that the number they had on file for him in the unit's nominal roll lead to a disconnected number.

I said, the chain of command has every right to ask you what your contact information is. If all you have is an address and no phone or email, that's fine, but you have to tell them. If you simply refuse, to tell them your address, phone number, or a reliable email if that's all you have, I think a CO would have grounds to  charge. Further, you can't lie about what your contact information is. If you don't want to give them your phone number, but they insist, and so you give them a fake number, I believe that could also lead to a charge.

Not everything needs a reference to back it up; a lawful order by the CO is any order that is neither manifestly unlawful (murder, rape, theft), nor specifically prohibited by regulations. It's the actual lack of a reference to the contrary that makes the CO order lawful. Source: this is exactly what my local AJAG described to me.

Sorry Lumber, you are the one that misunderstood. I never said a 'disconnected' number. I said and 'unlisted' number. Meaning the number wasn't to be published or passed around and used for emergencies only.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Ok, I get it now. You guys just misunderstood what I was saying, so I probably wasn't being clear enough.

I wasn't saying that everyone has to have a phone, nor was I saying that everyone (including class-A reservists) needs to answer their phones (if they have them).

Recceguy said that the number they had on file for him in the unit's nominal roll lead to a disconnected number.

I said, the chain of command has every right to ask you what your contact information is. If all you have is an address and no phone or email, that's fine, but you have to tell them. If you simply refuse, to tell them your address, phone number, or a reliable email if that's all you have, I think a CO would have grounds to  charge. Further, you can't lie about what your contact information is. If you don't want to give them your phone number, but they insist, and so you give them a fake number, I believe that could also lead to a charge.

Not everything needs a reference to back it up; a lawful order by the CO any superior officer (IAW QR & O, Vol 1, Art 1.02 Definitions) is any order that is neither manifestly unlawful (murder, rape, theft), nor specifically prohibited by regulations. It's the actual lack of a reference to the contrary that makes the CO order lawful. Source: this is exactly what my local AJAG described to me.

Thanks for the additional 'context' info.  I think I get what you're laying down now.  I recently did the UDI/CL training with the AJAG and it was evident that admin actions are far easier to use than disciplinary, even for CL B folks not employed at Reg Force units, as they are only on duty and subj to the CSD during duty hours (and that is not 24/7).

 

[Lumber]

Sorry Lumber, you are the one that misunderstood. I never said a 'disconnected' number. I said and 'unlisted' number. Meaning the number wasn't to be published or passed around and used for emergencies only.

Ah. My bad then. I misunderstood what you meant by unlisted. Then yes, I think if you're concerned about privacy that your CoC can have your number in a separate recall list that isn't available to the rest of the unit. We have those on ship too.

 

[runormal]

Now, HQs have become accustomed to being able to generate returns on a quick cycle due, mostly, because technology makes information and statistics easy to obtain, collate and transmit.  This starts right at the top with HQs who do "deep dives" into units to gain information on how XXX is performing or staff check on YYY to see if it's a feasible COA.  In the past, staff officers would have to use their experience and judgement  to determine that because commanders would take a staff officers assessment at face value and not demand that the assessment be shown to be based on detailed analysis and data derived from deep dives and RFIs.  This, in my mind, is symptomatic of a risk averse organization where decisions are subject to "retro-analysis".

For everyone else, I agree there's too much information; I'm constantly filling out spreadsheets and submitting reports to HQ for readiness levels for everything (medical, C7, 404, dental, ID, Trailering, TDGC, FORCE, security clearances, et), reprot for HISB training, for employment equity training, to ethics training, etc... they want to know about and track everything!

Providing your orderly room is up to date (which has been the case for the two units I've worked at) why can't the Div/Brigade just pull all of this data from Monitor Mass/Peoplesoft themselves ? Why would they even need to ask you for this stuff? This doesn't make any sense and it poor use of everyone's time. You can follow up with individual units as required based on what you query. I.E "We noticed that your last Force test was held in 2016, is this accurate?" It's not really that difficult.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I actually think that Defence Program Analytics (business intelligence) should be a huge boon to the Reserves.  We have to stop having WO and Capts filling in each other's spreadsheets.  It is a ridiculous waste of time.  If we have good baseline (and well curated) data in systems of records (HRMS, CFTPO, DRMIS etc) as well as the odd bespoke spreadsheet or database properly curated in the Business Warehouse, then reports and returns can and will be updated in seconds. 

There are two elements to DPA - good data, and good reports (that answer good questions).  Lower levels should focus only on ensuring that we have valid and accurate data, and higher levels (and I mean L1 and L2) should be the ones that create the reports.  That ensures that the burden of skill (specialists trained in DPA) does not get transferred to the Armoury floor.

There are over 400 reports already available within the system,  Each one of them creates links to data sources of record, and arranges / manipulates them to answer a question, or to provide insight to decision makers.  Those reports are easily tailored from the corporate level to the Armoury floor.

DPA is coming, whether you agree or not.  If we fight it, we will spend all of our time reporting bad data to unnecessary staff officers.  If we leverage it (and the over $1B that the institution has already spent on the system) we will find ourselves with a solid start point for cutting staff bloat.  If reports and returns are automated, why do we need all those staff Capts and Majors?

The key here is to automated the mundane, so that we can focus of the sublime.  Less reports and return fuckery, and more field training.

My  :2c:

 

[kratz]

I was one of the few career Class B types.

The rare breaks that I was a Class A, I contributed to the current "on call" mentality.
I did the crap jobs and was offered the jammy jobs faster because I was "always" available.
Those extra jobs, earned me more skills / qualifications than if I had of stuck to the minimum mantra:
"A Wednesday night and a Saturday per month".

As a department clerk, I had to receive, process, sort, push all comms (email, voice, written ect)...
between my SHO (F/T & P/T), CoC (F/T & P/T), members of my department (F/T & P/T), and other parts of the ship's company
(F/T & P/T).

On average, I was working the two half nights (incoming info), and working another 2 days (outgoing / confirming) each week.
Yes, NavRes HQ had to approve additional days per year for me, but the work was done on time and our pers were looked after.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I was one of the few career Class B types.

I don't think that word means what you think it means....

 

[Jarnhamar]

If I was a civilian boss and my employee was also a reservist who was answering CAF-related  emails while I was paying them to work for me (whether on a company email or personal) I'd probably take issue with it.

 

[brihard]

If I was a civilian boss and my employee was also a reservist who was answering CAF-related  emails while I was paying them to work for me (whether on a company email or personal) I'd probably take issue with it.

I am aware of one extreme case of a civilian lawyer working under DND who lost their job for crossing the streams excessively and inappropriately.

 

[kratz]

Jarnhamar,

At entry level jobs, like Walmart or Tim Hortons, where they time your output, I understand your point of view.

Skilled or results jobs, wouldn't blink at mixed time, as long as the goals are achieved.

 

[dapaterson]

If I was a civilian boss and my employee was also a reservist who was answering CAF-related  emails while I was paying them to work for me (whether on a company email or personal) I'd probably take issue with it.

Depends on the employer and employee.  If Bob spends an hour a day answering CAF emails, and stays an hour late (without asking for overtime or other stuff) then it's a wash.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Depends on the employer and employee.  If Bob spends an hour a day answering CAF emails, and stays an hour late (without asking for overtime or other stuff) then it's a wash.

I'd say Bob was a Russian spy  ;D

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I don't think that word means what you think it means....

;D