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Montreal police ticket veteran bagpiper for carrying traditional knife

expwor

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recceguy said:
Would you parade on Remembrance Day with rubber rifles? Or as an Officer with a wooden sword?

Well my two cents if even worth that, when I was in the Militia, on Remembrance Day not only did we carry a real rifle (FNC1A1...that's how old I am) we put the breech block in and carried the rifle with fixed bayonets.
To answer your question though, I sure hope not.

Tom
 

QV

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There are far too many precious snowflakes in need of safe spaces these days....or maybe social media just makes that seem to be the case...
 

Jarnhamar

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[quote author=BurmaShave]

And Recce? I don't wanna get in DS trouble on my 12th post, but I don't think there's cause to blow up at Max like that.
[/quote]

I thought Max meant why not make all cultural and religious weapons/knives plastic/fake.  I thought that was an interesting thought, could be a good debate.

Reading the story I couldn't tell if this guy was signed in to his reservist job or not.  Musicians do a lot of outsourcing (for lack o a better word). He could be being paid directly by the venue.  If he was on duty I'd launch the high paid military lawyers.

Police and Leo's often make mistakes with this kind of stuff,  all one needs to do is research non-restricted firearms that look like military style guns.

*apologize for grammar
 

SupersonicMax

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Jarnhamar said:
I thought Max meant why not male all cultural and religious weapons/knives plastic/fake.  I thought that was an interesting though, could be a good debate

This was my initial intent but someone else broaden the subject and could I not immediately find a valid reason to use actual weapons on parade.  I am happy to be presented with valid reasons.

Edit to clarify
 

BurmaShave

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Jarnhamar said:
I thought Max meant why not male all cultural and religious weapons/knives plastic/fake.  I thought that was an interesting though, could be a good debate.

Reading the story I couldn't tell if this guy was signed in to his reservist job or not.  Musicians do a lot of outsourcing (for lack o a better word). He could be being paid directly by the venue.  If he was on duty I'd launch the high paid military lawyers.

Police and Leo's often make mistakes with this kind of stuff,  all one needs to do is research non-restricted firearms that look like military style guns.

Yeah, it seemed an interesting thought to me, too, which is why the blowup at Max and the RCAF bugged me. I'm not sure how much Joe Public cares about Sikhs and Scots with knives, and I'm not sure whether Joe Public's desire for safety is trumped by the rights of traditions. A worthwhile discussion IMO, even though I'm sure some posters will think otherwise (please don't hurt me, guys. I just like a good discussion).

If he was on duty, I'd wager he'd have just blown them off. "I'm a piper in the Black Watch, this is my uniform". Done.
It's the off duty case, where it goes from uniform to traditional Scottish dress that brings (in this case, seemingly incorrect) interpretation of the bylaw into it.
 

Jarnhamar

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SupersonicMax said:
This was my initial intent but someone else broaden the subject and could I not immediately find a valid reason to use actual weapons on parade.  I am happy to be presented with valid reasons.

Edit to clarify
My views on weapons on parade.

On one (lazy)  hand  losing a rubber rifle/sword is a lot less significant than losing a real one. 
On the other hand were members of the military and should be prepared to react with violence at a moments notice.

Tieing into that train of thought members of the military are prime targets for terrorist attacks and while a steel bayonet  may not hold up to an ak47 it's still better than being defenseless. 

Not the strongest argument.

 

mariomike

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Kat Stevens said:
Read a freedom of the city proclamation, it covers this nicely.

The last one I read,

City of Toronto to affirm The Royal Regiment of Canada's Freedom of the City
http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=af71df79b2df6410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD&nrkey=133F12C6BCF3BD4985257FB100520BD5&start=1&count=30
 

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George Wallace

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Jarnhamar said:
I thought Max meant why not make all cultural and religious weapons/knives plastic/fake.  I thought that was an interesting thought, could be a good debate.

To tell you the truth, whether that knife blade was steel or plastic would make no difference.  It would still be an effective stabbing tool if used as such.  If you really wanted to, you could use a pen or pencil and create a much deeper stab wound than this knife, and likely cause more damage through contamination.  This whole matter is a farce and the piper should contest it.  The Police officer was being a moron or a dick or both.

My  :2c:
 

George Wallace

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SupersonicMax said:
To come back to the subject, the questions that would need answering are:

1- Does the population actually have issues with using weapons on parade?

Max.

The population has actual issues with so many things, the Niqāb, turbans, crosses, prayers in schools, military aircraft at air shows, and the list goes on to infinity......Soon we won't be able to step outside our doors without breaking some by-law or offending someone.

Proof that many of our people in government or filling roles of authority are losing all common sense.

SupersonicMax said:
2- If yes, is there an actual need to carry weapons on a parade?

It actually depends on the circumstances.  There are parades where weapons are not carried, such as November the 11th, where only the Cenotaph Guard have weapons to perform their duties.  Freedom of the City parades demonstrate the freedom granted the unit to "march through the streets with drums beating, colours flying and bayonets fixed".

SupersonicMax said:
3- Can we achieve the same "effect" with "fake" weapons?

No.  Even a "fake" weapon can construed as real by these type of people.  That applies just as well to the complaints towards non-weaponized military aircraft at air shows.
 

Journeyman

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The bottom line is, if the Montreal police had not raised the issue of the piper's skean dhu, we're only a small step from "Canadian cities. Soldiers with guns. In our cities. In Canada."
Total anarchy!    :panic:


Edit:  Sorry, I forgot the :sarcasm:
 

Chispa

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expwor said:
Well my two cents if even worth that, when I was in the Militia, on Remembrance Day not only did we carry a real rifle (FNC1A1...that's how old I am) we put the breech block in and carried the rifle with fixed bayonets.
To answer your question though, I sure hope not.

Tom

BW in 70-80s-90s, all regiments in the City of Montreal, marched on remembrance day, etc., with bang sticks and fixed bayonets, last remembrance day the BW RHR of Canada, Officers, wore their swords, skean dhu, etc., the file with rifles, bayonets and scabbards, even on the Queen Mother visits, and past with prince chuckles. It's part of Regimental Standing Orders on Dress dating back over 100 years.


No worries got the headsup, the S hit the fan, make no mistake about that. 

As for plastic, I brought from the US a dagger made from compost materials and it cuts and kills just like the real deal.


Montreal politicians are not pleased with police officers going after a well-known bagpiper.
http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/politicians-not-impressed-with-bagpiper-getting-ticket-1.3146962

MAYOR CODERRE WONDERS IF BAGPIPER SHOULD HAVE BEEN TICKETED AT ALL.
http://www.iheartradio.ca/cjad/news/mayor-coderre-wonders-if-bagpiper-should-have-been-ticketed-at-all-1.2130338


C.U.


 

George Wallace

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Perhaps that officer should have her letter opener confiscated and handed a $221 fine.    >:D
 

Jarnhamar

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Not really related but I wonder what kind of fun pants the officer was wearing.
 
S

sandyson

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Piper McCarthy was playing for McGill University:  "But McCarthy ran into trouble on his way to play the bagpipes at McGill University's fall convocation at Place-des-Arts Wednesday."  He was not on duty at the time so this has very little to do with the military.
Might be a bit tricky getting a piper for a police event at least in Montreal for awhile.
As for carrying weapons in cities, I was stopped by the Sherbrooke Police many years ago for carrying my sword home.  A bus driver made the complaint.  The police dismissed the complaint immediately.
As for parades with weapons, the Regiments sent a letter to the mayor informing him/her that we intended to exercise our 'freedom of the city'. 
 

mariomike

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Jarnhamar said:
Not really related but I wonder what kind of fun pants the officer was wearing.

That makes me sick. It's not limited to Montreal, and not limited to the police.
Don't like your job? GTFO. There's lots of replacements on the hiring list.
 

George Wallace

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Sandyson said:
Piper McCarthy was playing for McGill University:  "But McCarthy ran into trouble on his way to play the bagpipes at McGill University's fall convocation at Place-des-Arts Wednesday."  He was not on duty at the time so this has very little to do with the military.
Might be a bit tricky getting a piper for a police event at least in Montreal for awhile.
As for carrying weapons in cities, I was stopped by the Sherbrooke Police many years ago for carrying my sword home.  A bus driver made the complaint.  The police dismissed the complaint immediately.
As for parades with weapons, the Regiments sent a letter to the mayor informing him/her that we intended to exercise our 'freedom of the city'.

In this article it is quoted:

Chispa said:
Montreal politicians are not pleased with police officers going after a well-known bagpiper.
http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/politicians-not-impressed-with-bagpiper-getting-ticket-1.3146962
In fact, McCarthy has been wearing the sgian-dubh at various events around Montreal for 25 years -- including inside council chambers.

City Councillor Sterling Downey said he has worn the knife with his kilt at city hall without being stopped by police -- and pointed out that McCarthy recently played at the funeral for a retired police officer.


Later in one of those two posted links by Chispa, it mentions that the officer was female and they are interested in what her reasoning was.
 

dapaterson

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Montreal Police ate wearing those pants as a protest to contract talks that are stuck.
 

mariomike

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dapaterson said:
Montreal Police ate wearing those pants as a protest to contract talks that are stuck.

I remember reading that on here,

Boxtop22 said:
The Montreal Police has been on strike for months, and a way for them to express the fact that they're on strike is not to wear their full regular uniform. They will replace their trousers with (most of the time) military trousers  (EROL / MARPAT / CADPAT) etc. I find it odd that individuals (which are technically supposed to represent law and order) are allowed to use cadpat/ or cadpat-like uniform (or part-of) as a way to protest, while it is supposed to be something you must earn and something you respect...

I remember our union - management contract talks getting stuck from time to time. They went to arbitration to get unstuck. 

 
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