More M777's on the way
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Irrespective of terrain, an airborne battle group MUST stage from an airhead. From there, it can deploy virtually anywhere, weather permitting. Once deployed, they are pretty well stuck there.old fart said:
Mechanised forces are harder to get into theatre, I imagine, but once there, they can go to and fro, terrain dependent. Once terrain cuts them off, they can dismount, or whatever.
Perhaps you are thinking of airmobile forces?
daftandbarmy
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Correct,
An airborne battle group would rely on deploying from a secure airbase e.g., Kabul/ Kandahar, direct to a DZ/FOB somewhere in the boonies where there are suitable dirt strip facilities. I've never been to Afghanistan, but we used to practise this type of op in Oman and other places and it worked quite well. Of course, weather is a factor but, following the airborne insertion, wind wouldn't be an issue, and weather is generally pretty good in the arid regions. Having secured a FOB somewhere on the border, helicopters could also be staged out to the FOB to conduct airmobile ops. All this could be managed under the protective umbrella of an excellent long range 155mm gun system.
This is all pretty standard practise for airborne formations around the world, and is something that I believe our SSF used to do all the time.
Another advantage is that when you're not engaged on these types of airborne ops, all the kit (hercs, choppers, guns etc) can be used for other in theatre tasks. It doesn't need to be assigned 'full time' to the airborne types. We would need an upgraded tac lift capability via C-130J and Chinook, or the equivalent. We'd also probably need a light airportable vehicle, much like the WMIK's being used by the UK's Parachute Regiment, to airland and zip around the landscape doing their various tasks. We also used to deploy Scimitar by air (air drop, LAPES or air land) for armoured recce purposes, and it worked quite well. So it would be nice to have a bit of kit like that too, but probably not essential.
When we needed to PUFO, a full battle group like this could be extracted in a couple of hours max. We once extracted my full company (during an exercise, not on live ops) at night on hercs lined up in cab rank flying on PNG - with Harrier top cover - in only 20 minutes, and I stepped onto the last plane out with the mortars who were covering the footprint right up to the end. The whole battle group was 'wheels up' and outta there within an hour. In this type of operation the 'special forces' IMHO are not the trigger pullers, but the loadies and aircrew who get us on and off planes quickly and safely, gawd bless 'em.
In general, this would more fully exploit one of our natural advantages over our enemy in a low intensity conflict: mastery of the air. Right now, Canada can't do that too well, although with the new aircraft buy on the horizon we might be able to make it work.
Of course, coordination of these kinds of ops with ground based armoured forces - as well as long range SF/CSOR operations - is a great idea, and again something that we used to be good at but have lost the capability for. It's not about the 'armoured lobby' winning out over the 'airborne lobby'. It's all about flexibility and having enough 'tools in the tool box' being able to surprise the enemy, keep them off balance and change their minds about taking us on. Right now, whenever we go somewhere, the whole country probably knows what we're up to as they just need to follow the big snake of armour out to our wherever our TAOR happens to be and take us on on pretty much on their own terms.
An airborne battle group would rely on deploying from a secure airbase e.g., Kabul/ Kandahar, direct to a DZ/FOB somewhere in the boonies where there are suitable dirt strip facilities. I've never been to Afghanistan, but we used to practise this type of op in Oman and other places and it worked quite well. Of course, weather is a factor but, following the airborne insertion, wind wouldn't be an issue, and weather is generally pretty good in the arid regions. Having secured a FOB somewhere on the border, helicopters could also be staged out to the FOB to conduct airmobile ops. All this could be managed under the protective umbrella of an excellent long range 155mm gun system.
This is all pretty standard practise for airborne formations around the world, and is something that I believe our SSF used to do all the time.
Another advantage is that when you're not engaged on these types of airborne ops, all the kit (hercs, choppers, guns etc) can be used for other in theatre tasks. It doesn't need to be assigned 'full time' to the airborne types. We would need an upgraded tac lift capability via C-130J and Chinook, or the equivalent. We'd also probably need a light airportable vehicle, much like the WMIK's being used by the UK's Parachute Regiment, to airland and zip around the landscape doing their various tasks. We also used to deploy Scimitar by air (air drop, LAPES or air land) for armoured recce purposes, and it worked quite well. So it would be nice to have a bit of kit like that too, but probably not essential.
When we needed to PUFO, a full battle group like this could be extracted in a couple of hours max. We once extracted my full company (during an exercise, not on live ops) at night on hercs lined up in cab rank flying on PNG - with Harrier top cover - in only 20 minutes, and I stepped onto the last plane out with the mortars who were covering the footprint right up to the end. The whole battle group was 'wheels up' and outta there within an hour. In this type of operation the 'special forces' IMHO are not the trigger pullers, but the loadies and aircrew who get us on and off planes quickly and safely, gawd bless 'em.
In general, this would more fully exploit one of our natural advantages over our enemy in a low intensity conflict: mastery of the air. Right now, Canada can't do that too well, although with the new aircraft buy on the horizon we might be able to make it work.
Of course, coordination of these kinds of ops with ground based armoured forces - as well as long range SF/CSOR operations - is a great idea, and again something that we used to be good at but have lost the capability for. It's not about the 'armoured lobby' winning out over the 'airborne lobby'. It's all about flexibility and having enough 'tools in the tool box' being able to surprise the enemy, keep them off balance and change their minds about taking us on. Right now, whenever we go somewhere, the whole country probably knows what we're up to as they just need to follow the big snake of armour out to our wherever our TAOR happens to be and take us on on pretty much on their own terms.
Something to keep in mid though is the M777s were acquired as part of a UOR, meaning it is a mission specific piece of kit, currently intended for Ops in Afghanistan only, to that end only a very limited number were bought. Because of that limited number there have been some problems in training, figure it out, 4 in theatre but only 2 in Canada. There is need for more in both theatre and in Canada for training purposes and op stock. These additional guns are quite a timely "gift", but the level of further commitment to risk these guns in Airborne Ops, IMO, is very unlikely in the near future. I would be very diffcult just to get add yet more to the pre-deployment training
Just look at the fact that there are very few of any of the gunners themselves that have even a jump course, the last time we had an official Para Bty was in 93 (I left the para Bty in 91). It would take some time to rebuild that unit level skill to operate like that again.
Besides which the level of skill required from top to bottom in the Battle group as a whole isn't there and would take yet more time to put together, assuming someone thought it worthwhile. I don't see it myself, not anytime soon anyway.
Just look at the fact that there are very few of any of the gunners themselves that have even a jump course, the last time we had an official Para Bty was in 93 (I left the para Bty in 91). It would take some time to rebuild that unit level skill to operate like that again.
Besides which the level of skill required from top to bottom in the Battle group as a whole isn't there and would take yet more time to put together, assuming someone thought it worthwhile. I don't see it myself, not anytime soon anyway.
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Petard said:
so you mean that if the afghanistan mission was to finish tommorow there would be no use for them ?
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Chawki, Petard is speaking more to the fact that when the guns were originally purchased, they were purchased with the Afghanistan mission in mind. That is not to say, however, that the guns would be rendered useless by an end mission in Afghanistan. Firepower can never be underestimated and you can never have enough of it. As Petard states later: "There is need for more in both theatre and in Canada for training purposes and op stock." Artillery has always, and will always, be needed.
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Chawki
Are you shooting Naptha into your veins on Christmas dude ? They were a 155mm UOR because of their accuracy and ability to mitigate collateral damage, of course their still relevant for other tasks but I don't see the Cdn Army taking too much more on their plate in the next couple of years.
For Petard you're absolutely right, it would take a while for an arty bty to get back on their feet with regards to the airborne thing, that being said though I know one of the btys in Shilo(C) has leaned way forward on this issue and continues to get guys on the para course (with spots allocated to them fm 3VP when they can't fill them all and Bde) I also know that last year they jumped a Tp- with mortars in Kamloops, not guns but still.....not all the skills have been lost(yet)
And Teddy, I doubt (they won't)that they'll send all the new 777s to theatre but if your betting that none are going to go you're probably going to lose a little bit of money.
Are you shooting Naptha into your veins on Christmas dude ? They were a 155mm UOR because of their accuracy and ability to mitigate collateral damage, of course their still relevant for other tasks but I don't see the Cdn Army taking too much more on their plate in the next couple of years.
For Petard you're absolutely right, it would take a while for an arty bty to get back on their feet with regards to the airborne thing, that being said though I know one of the btys in Shilo(C) has leaned way forward on this issue and continues to get guys on the para course (with spots allocated to them fm 3VP when they can't fill them all and Bde) I also know that last year they jumped a Tp- with mortars in Kamloops, not guns but still.....not all the skills have been lost(yet)
And Teddy, I doubt (they won't)that they'll send all the new 777s to theatre but if your betting that none are going to go you're probably going to lose a little bit of money.
daftandbarmy
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Well, seeing as it's Christmas, how about if I write a letter to Santa and see what happens...
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daftandbarmy said:
Well if you write a letter to Santa now you won't get it as a present until exactly a year from now. Wow, that would be considerably faster than our current procurement system. ;D
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rampage800 said:
Yes i know i was pointing my disbelief of that statement with a question
Oh and i prefer eggnog
Chawki Bensalem said:
...as some have already mentioned, that's not the point.
Some have made the leap that the M777 is going to replace the entire fleet of guns in Cdn Artillery Regiments, or at least in the Bty's that are still tasked as gun bty's (some have been rerolled to STA) and yet remain gunless with the withdrawal of the M109 almost 3 years ago. These bty's have made do with some borrowed C3's from the reserves, but the I haven't heard anything yet on any long term solutions. Undoubtedly the M777 will play a part in that future, what, hasn't been ironed out either. It might be possible a Para Bty will rise again, I'm not so sure it would be C Bty in Shilo, could be E Bty again given its location to other units that might be formed into something of an Airborne battle Group. I don't know, that's pie in the sky isn't it?
The point about this airborne capability is it will take a lot of resources to keep afloat, not impossible, but IMO I don't see that happening anytime soon considering how the Army will be running flat out for the next few years with the task at hand in Afghanistan.
George Wallace
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Chawki Bensalem said:
Please remember folks that Chawki Bensalem is a 14 year old Cadet. Please do not get lead off on tangents.
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My bad, should have read the profile first. Glad to hear he likes eggnog though 
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George Wallace said:
And he sometimes forgets he really should read first before posting.
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