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More sailors needed for Canada's warships

The Canadian Navy wants to act like a AEGIS class Navy, with 25 year old radars bought from a Dutch flea market with departments of 6 people, that have remars of 12.(an example) Our techs can only do so much!

It is hard to get people to stay, when you have to do the same expected tasks with half the people and expecting the 6 people to make up for the 72 hours per day of manpower lost.  Then have your Chief tell you that you are sailing on another ship as they are short.

Where are our new ships, helos, phased array radars?

The pay is good and the food is great, but how many times do we have to go to Norfolk!

axeman...I hope your not writing my PER..ouch

 
Halifax Tar, your right that times have changed. The kind of people we get in now are better educated than we had before and won't put up with the disatisfiers that we as a Navy faced 30 years ago and face today. They know they can easily work in the private sector, be paid a lot more and avoid some of the crap we face today.
As for the low income housing, we did for a time have this, but the Navy in particular has gotten out of this somewhat mostly due to the fact we now make a lot more money and can afford houses, when back in the day money was tight.
I agree we need to instill some pride back in our Navy, I think for instance we should bring back the Naval Gun Run there was a lot of pride in sailors when they tried out and got on the team. Other things are in the works for the 100Th anniversary of the navy that will hopefully raise awaremess.
Your right that parking is a piss off at times, its high time that a parking garage or something gets built in the dockyard. Its easy to say take the bus, but lots of personnel live in areas that there is no bus service or have to be at work before the bus runs. Also back in the day a lot of the Navy lived in Wallis Heights and Shannon Park and went to work in the blue boat everyday.
I think that the attitude if you don't like it get out is going to have to change. They have done that already to lots of people who they called their bluff and guess what? they got out. Right now if you release in Halifax you have to see the Admiral why you want to quit. Its getting that bad on retention right now. If the Navy is going to grow, the way we do business is going to have to change with the times while hopefully keeping our customs and traditions.
 
With regard to the comments about not having any suggestions for a better PER system, and how to fix retention problems in the Navy, I can only offer this:

I don't need to be a fully qualified mechanic (or even a backyard mechanic) to know my car is busted and won't go.  I can offer symptoms like "it goes 'grind grind grind' when I press the brake pedal", but that has nothing to do with my ability to repair the problem.

Likewise, I don't need a degree in Human Resources Management to know that there are flaws in the PER system (for example).  However, while one may (heavy emphasis on 'may') be able to offer a better solution, it's not my pay grade to do that - there are people who get paid perfectly good money to examine things like CFPAS and make improvements on it.  I have my own work to do, and nobody is pulling extra hours to make my job any easier.  If I had scads of free time in my day I'm sure I'd be able to solve all the CF's problems, but how many of us are actually able to say they have free time?
 
If you don't like it get out! I'll see you in a few years when you realize that life in civy street is no fun either and that chances are you still won't have a parking spot in downtown Halifax on the waterfront or within walking distance to your job.  The parking always cracks me up because when you sit down and think about it, could the dockyard handle another thousand maybe two thousand cars parking garage or not. I mean there are only two ways into dockyard and everyone gets off at about 1600 so really just give up on the parking thing lads and do your time and earn your spot.

As for instiling pride in the Fleet...well that's a different story. In my opinion I think the reason (and I know I'm going to get raked over the coals for this) is that we are to soft on our sailors we make their life to easy. Our OD's get paid very well for the job they are expected to do they get great benifits and care packages they are treated very well. Sure they have to scrub the crappers but hell who the hell is going to do it the CAPTAIN! Work hard and get promoted within 6-8 years you'll be able to but that part of it behind you.  

Getting back to pride thing, the reason simply is that life in the Navy doesn't suck as much as it used to. Sound silly? No way, you want to know why the Marines have so much pride? Being a Marine is a tough life. The training is hard the life is hard, you deploy alot and when I say alot I friggin' mean it I'm talking months away every year. Not to mention the fact that the Marine in his early years really has no say in where he goes, it could be Montana or Montenegro. The Marine feels pride because he knows he's doing a job not everone could do he has a hard job and the fact that it is hard and not everyone wants to do it is what gives him his pride. Navy life these days has a low sense of pride because it has a feeling like this is a job anyone could do there is nothing special here my little sister could do this.

How do we fix this? Well first off, our older sailors need to do a better job of passing on the traditions of' our Navy, do you know that Quartermasters these days are no longer saluting civilian females when they cross the brow anymore. Small thing I know but when I ask why not they tell me they where never taught and besides it's not in the "brow pack".  We need to get the small traditions back and pass them on, tradition breeds pride. Secondly we need to deploy more we need more missions with real substance not just TGEX after TGEX.  When we deploy we accomplish those tasks that not everyone can do.  This seems  counter intuitive to the earlier arguments of lads jetty jumping from ship to ship to sail and to some extent it is. Lastly in order to help folks feel pride at a unit level we simply need more sailors, we feel more pride when we stay on a ship that's"ours" that is "my unit, my shipmates". That's what we had when I joined we had a family and I sailed with my family and my family was stable and they were there when I needed them. Now we change around so much I don't even bother to learn anyones name.

Let the flaming begin.
 
Stoker said:
Halifax Tar, your right that times have changed. The kind of people we get in now are better educated than we had before and won't put up with the disatisfiers that we as a Navy faced 30 years ago and face today. They know they can easily work in the private sector, be paid a lot more and avoid some of the crap we face today.
As for the low income housing, we did for a time have this, but the Navy in particular has gotten out of this somewhat mostly due to the fact we now make a lot more money and can afford houses, when back in the day money was tight.
I agree we need to instill some pride back in our Navy, I think for instance we should bring back the Naval Gun Run there was a lot of pride in sailors when they tried out and got on the team. Other things are in the works for the 100Th anniversary of the navy that will hopefully raise awaremess.
Your right that parking is a piss off at times, its high time that a parking garage or something gets built in the dockyard. Its easy to say take the bus, but lots of personnel live in areas that there is no bus service or have to be at work before the bus runs. Also back in the day a lot of the Navy lived in Wallis Heights and Shannon Park and went to work in the blue boat everyday.
I think that the attitude if you don't like it get out is going to have to change. They have done that already to lots of people who they called their bluff and guess what? they got out. Right now if you release in Halifax you have to see the Admiral why you want to quit. Its getting that bad on retention right now. If the Navy is going to grow, the way we do business is going to have to change with the times while hopefully keeping our customs and traditions.

From our brief from the Commodore several weeks back, I think we are coming to the crossroads. He mentioned the upcoming 100th anniversay of the founding of the Canadian Navy and how he would like to have some sort of guard made up of some of the ships that are coming off their operational tempo. To be part of those celebrations and if the Navy is smart, they will capitalize on this for public relations. It has the potential to be a coup recruiting wise.

On a side note I did not realize one had to see the Admiral if one was releasing. Very diferent indeed.

If you don't like it get out! I'll see you in a few years when you realize that life in civy street is no fun either and that chances are you still won't have a parking spot in downtown Halifax on the waterfront or within walking distance to your job.  The parking always cracks me up because when you sit down and think about it, could the dockyard handle another thousand maybe two thousand cars parking garage or not. I mean there are only two ways into dockyard and everyone gets off at about 1600 so really just give up on the parking thing lads and do your time and earn your spot.
I understand the dockyard mateys have the majority of the parking spots, maybe its time the navy stands up to the union to get spots back for the sailors. Life in civvy street must be better because as I understand it, well over half of those releasing do not come back in.

As for instiling pride in the Fleet...well that's a different story. In my opinion I think the reason (and I know I'm going to get raked over the coals for this) is that we are to soft on our sailors we make their life to easy. Our OD's get paid very well for the job they are expected to do they get great benifits and care packages they are treated very well. Sure they have to scrub the crappers but hell who the hell is going to do it the CAPTAIN! Work hard and get promoted within 6-8 years you'll be able to but that part of it behind you. 
We can't treat our sailors the way we were treated and those that came before us were treated. Because guess what, its not working! When something is not working then sometimes a different approach is needed. Most people we have coming in are older, better educated, some already have families and most have held a job. To treat them like they don't have a clue as I said before is not working. Time for a different tact.

Getting back to pride thing, the reason simply is that life in the Navy doesn't suck as much as it used to. Sound silly? No way, you want to know why the Marines have so much pride? Being a Marine is a tough life. The training is hard the life is hard, you deploy alot and when I say alot I friggin' mean it I'm talking months away every year. Not to mention the fact that the Marine in his early years really has no say in where he goes, it could be Montana or Montenegro. The Marine feels pride because he knows he's doing a job not everone could do he has a hard job and the fact that it is hard and not everyone wants to do it is what gives him his pride. Navy life these days has a low sense of pride because it has a feeling like this is a job anyone could do there is nothing special here my little sister could do this.
I don't think you can fairly compare a Marine to a Sailor, first and foremost a Marine is a combat soldier. That is a brotherhood that a Sailor no matter how pusser or how much pride he has in himself and his unit he will never attain that esprit de corps.

How do we fix this? Well first off, our older sailors need to do a better job of passing on the traditions of' our Navy, do you know that Quartermasters these days are no longer saluting civilian females when they cross the brow anymore. Small thing I know but when I ask why not they tell me they where never taught and besides it's not in the "brow pack".  We need to get the small traditions back and pass them on, tradition breeds pride. Secondly we need to deploy more we need more missions with real substance not just TGEX after TGEX.  When we deploy we accomplish those tasks that not everyone can do.  This seems  counter intuitive to the earlier arguments of lads jetty jumping from ship to ship to sail and to some extent it is. Lastly in order to help folks feel pride at a unit level we simply need more sailors, we feel more pride when we stay on a ship that's"ours" that is "my unit, my shipmates". That's what we had when I joined we had a family and I sailed with my family and my family was stable and they were there when I needed them. Now we change around so much I don't even bother to learn anyones name.
I don't have a problem if one of my QMs doesn't salute a female crossing the brow. Considering now the majority of the females that cross our brows are fellow sailors. I don't have a problem with that tradition going by the wayside. I do have a problem if my QM does not not what to do in the event of a fire or a flood onboard my ship or another. I think a lot of our problems stem from the fact our new sailors want to get into learning about their trade fkirst and foremost and then we push OSQAB (whatever its called now) etc on them. Yeah it is important for them to know but so is making them feel like they are part of their own depeartment and not doing life bouy sentry 3 times to get it signed off when the department they are in never stands life bouy sentry.

Tradition is good up until it interferes with common sense and good morale. Then it has to change. My 2 cents.





 
Ex-Dragoon, you have a lot of valid points. How many times I have heard supervisors mainly older ones, use that on their people and guess what people are getting out. Look at the amount of releases after 20, not many staying around. We had the same brief a few weeks too and frankly it left alot of people angry, especially with the fact they have no solutions to our problems and the fact they are limiting us to 130 sea days next year. You right though that its great that the brass are finally understanding some of the problems we are having and are struggling to fix them. Parking is always going to be a problem, they should make the Dockyard mateys carpool too! As for going to see the Admiral I think that is only for more senior people, but still an eye opener all the same.
 
JohnnyCanuck1977 said:
If you don't like it get out! I'll see you in a few years when you realize that life in civy street is no fun either and that chances are you still won't have a parking spot in downtown Halifax on the waterfront or within walking distance to your job.  The parking always cracks me up because when you sit down and think about it, could the dockyard handle another thousand maybe two thousand cars parking garage or not. I mean there are only two ways into dockyard and everyone gets off at about 1600 so really just give up on the parking thing lads and do your time and earn your spot.

As for instiling pride in the Fleet...well that's a different story. In my opinion I think the reason (and I know I'm going to get raked over the coals for this) is that we are to soft on our sailors we make their life to easy. Our OD's get paid very well for the job they are expected to do they get great benifits and care packages they are treated very well. Sure they have to scrub the crappers but hell who the hell is going to do it the CAPTAIN! Work hard and get promoted within 6-8 years you'll be able to but that part of it behind you.  

Getting back to pride thing, the reason simply is that life in the Navy doesn't suck as much as it used to. Sound silly? No way, you want to know why the Marines have so much pride? Being a Marine is a tough life. The training is hard the life is hard, you deploy alot and when I say alot I friggin' mean it I'm talking months away every year. Not to mention the fact that the Marine in his early years really has no say in where he goes, it could be Montana or Montenegro. The Marine feels pride because he knows he's doing a job not everone could do he has a hard job and the fact that it is hard and not everyone wants to do it is what gives him his pride. Navy life these days has a low sense of pride because it has a feeling like this is a job anyone could do there is nothing special here my little sister could do this.

How do we fix this? Well first off, our older sailors need to do a better job of passing on the traditions of' our Navy, do you know that Quartermasters these days are no longer saluting civilian females when they cross the brow anymore. Small thing I know but when I ask why not they tell me they where never taught and besides it's not in the "brow pack".  We need to get the small traditions back and pass them on, tradition breeds pride. Secondly we need to deploy more we need more missions with real substance not just TGEX after TGEX.  When we deploy we accomplish those tasks that not everyone can do.  This seems  counter intuitive to the earlier arguments of lads jetty jumping from ship to ship to sail and to some extent it is. Lastly in order to help folks feel pride at a unit level we simply need more sailors, we feel more pride when we stay on a ship that's"ours" that is "my unit, my shipmates". That's what we had when I joined we had a family and I sailed with my family and my family was stable and they were there when I needed them. Now we change around so much I don't even bother to learn anyones name.

Let the flaming begin.

JohnnyCanuck1977 - I respect your time served and the great things I'm sure you accomplished while in the service of Canada. As stated be though times have changed and we need to do things differently if we want to exist and stay ahead of the game. I don't want want to sound like an *** to you because the military (read Navy) was much better in many ways in your day but those ideas and thought processes are invalid now and simply display an unwillingness to display.

If you want a good happy sailor who's ready to do his duty lets make sure his home/social life is in order so he doesn't have other things on his mind and can concentrate on being a good sailor. This will keep people around.

I was at the commodores brief too, he herd HMCS Toronto loud and clear. We are tired and we need a rest but will he listen ? That is the million dollar question.

Parking is just that simple. Give it to the men or it will be one of those things that drive good people out.

Oh and just so you know all my QMs know to salute civi females when crossing the brow.  ^-^
 
Tell ya what when female QM's start saluting males when the come onboard then I will start saluting women when they come on board.
 
Apparently the quartermasters where supposed to salute women coming onboard the ship. But it has fallen out of favour as who wants to salue a 19 year old private or OD who is coming to visit?
 
sledge said:
Apparently the quartermasters where supposed to salute women civilian coming onboard the ship. But it has fallen out of favour as who wants to salue a 19 year old private or OD who is coming to visit?
 
OK put them in civvies and tell them apart. is it there pusser high and tight haircut?
 
If the tradition were being passed on in the manner it should be, then the female Pte/OS that are coming aboard in civilian clothing would know to wave off the salute.  Even if they don't, what harm has it caused you as QM to have cranked off a salute?

For cheeky_monkey - it is customary as a Naval tradition to salute female civilians as they cross the brow.  I believe it used to be part of CFP 201 (Manual of Drill and Ceremonial), but the reference has been changed somewhat to indicate that salutes may be given to civilians as a mark of respect upon greeting or farewell.
 
The way Ilook at it is, you either want to be treated as equal or not as equals. Hence no salute.
 
sledge said:
The way Ilook at it is, you either want to be treated as equal or not as equals. Hence no salute.

It's a courtesy, nobody is asking you to carry them across the brow in your arms.  It costs nothing and it looks professional.

Do you still open doors for women?  Address civilians as sir or ma'am while in uniform?  It's courtesy, and it's a bloody shame it's going out the window.  Lead by example.
 
Saluting a fully loaded hearse is also "paying a courtesy"

Once upon a time, on the street, you'd also salute a lady, hold open the door for her, hold her chair as she was seated & stand when a lady would enter the room (at least on her 1st entry).

There is also the coutresy of standing upon the entry of the CO.

There is also the courtesy of standing upon the entry of the RSM (at least in the WOs & Sgts mess).
 
Thanks Dragoon. Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest with the saluting at the brow thing. My opinions are my own and I'm not an eloquent enough speaker to get my point across in a forum. I don't really know why folks leave the fleet in droves but I have a theory. I think it's safe to say that it is not the money, we get paid very well these days so I don't think it's the money. I also don't think that parking is really that big a concern, well maybe an annoyance but not a deal breaker even the newest of OD's can see that if every civilian gave up their spot the wait time for a spot would only drop a small amount instead of 15 years in for a spot it would be 10 maybe less but OS Bloggins still ain't parking on the base.  Duty watches and cleaning stations are definite dissatisfies but that isn't going away either, but these are duties that lessen and get better the longer you stay in.

All my previous rhetoric aside I still think the reason sailors leave is job satisfaction, pride. It just isn't there anymore. You go on deployment, you go on exercises or patrol and when it's over what do you get? A few days off, wow thanks. Don't get me wrong time off is a good thing.  But what happened to the days of splicing the main brace after a stint at sea? Or what's wrong with the lads having a few beers on the uppers when their painting the ship? What's wrong with bringing a little music out while your at it? When was the last time anyone enjoyed a stokers open or a Banyan that didn't feel somehow forced? Or for that matter when was the last time a mess got a cake or flat of beer for having their mess well turned out for Co's rounds? The root of the problem as I see it is that we work hard and don't play hard, because we're not allowed to anymore.

For instance I recall and this was awhile back, I was in Protecteur and we where on deployment in the Gulf. We had a chance to play the Dubai Camels in a friendly game of hockey during our next port visit. The folks on board were pretty excited but alot had forgotten their gear at home. So the MFRC back in Victoria offered to help ship everyones gear out to the ship. We spent alittle over a month at sea on patrol and were about 2 days away from coming alongside Dubai, the gear had been shipped the game booked and ready the men were even training in preparation for the game. The XO cancelled the game just prior to our coming alongside! He defended his decision based on the fact that he didn't want anyone to get injured!  Well needless to say their was alot of disappointed people onboard and ashore.

But this is what happens everyday to a lesser extent and not as obvious but slowly along the way we've lost our ability to adequately recognize the hard work sailors as groups and individuals put into making each sail happen.  And part of the reason why this is, is because we are short money, people and our leaders are short in vision.  What we as sailors do now to prepare for a sail was once considered extraordinary but because of budget cuts and being short manned the extraordinary has become ordinary. When I first joined it was unheard of except in unusual situations like Protecteurs 10 day notice to sail for East Timor, for members of the ships to work 24hrs a day right up until the ship sails. Take the old Tanker for example everytime we sail it takes a herculean effort by both the ships company and dockyard to get her to go.  We've got techs and even operators working shifts over 24hrs to assist dockyard workers prepare the ship to sail. And when it's all done and we sail, what do we get? Nothing usually maybe an extra day off but no real sense that what you just did was special. I know that what happens on the Tanker isn't unique to that ship, that the same thing is happening countless times throughout the fleet. We are all fighting for the same parts, same techs from ashore and we are all trying to fill our remars to sail from the same group of people. On the topic of personnel the last TGEX I think was the icing on the cake as far as doing as much as we could with as few people as possible. That TGEX was a flat out "bag drive".  We had ships issuing critical manning request during port visits, we had men and women transferring from one ship to another during port visits then back again in the next port just to fill different requirements at different stages of the EX.

Is there an easy answer? No. No one thing is going to make this better, but I think if we found a way to recognize the hard work of individuals and ships companies we'd be stepping in the right direction. I've seen ships try before but for some reason it never lasts. You know like sailor of the month prizes, gift certificates for doing something especially good. I don't know a plague or shiny sticker, :) tickets to a movie, heck maybe even give the guy a rotation off in the duty watch, something anything would be better than nothing. The bottom line is job satisfaction we used to have now we don't. Even I don't have the gun ho bravado I used to have I know hard to believe eh? ::) I used to be hard core, now I'm getting more bitter everyday, just a few years to go then I'm outta here. Anyway I've rambled off again.
 
Johnny no worries your message came across just fine. Having done the QM and BM, saluting a female in civillian dress  never helped with my pride and I saw it more of a peeve then anything else.

I agree that duty watches and cleaning stations will never go away but you know what would make a duty watch more tolerable for a lot of people? If they knew that they were guaranteed to get that next day off, none of the "we will see if we can let you slide at lunch bs". Another sore point for some as well is getting hit by Sea Training. Whether you do or not I don't think units getting hit every day or two accomplishes much, when half the duty watch lose sleep waiting for it to happen. I am not saying Sea Training does not serve a purpose because it does. Just gets old rather quick.

As for the manning issue I agree we are hurting. I know I try and sell the navy but I won't sugarcoat it either. Someone wants to know what I like and dislike I tell them. If they can see past the negative aspects and still want to join then I say bonus.
 
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