Mountain Warfare Gear

[GO!!!]

I will check it out... is it Naptha and multi fuel? External tank?  I like that about the whisperlite, different sized tank for different rigs.

It's achilles heel is that it runs on pressurised iso-butane, which comes in disposable containers of varying sizes.

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441932337&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302696549&bmUID=1168756469465

There are fuel tanks both larger and smaller than the pictured one, which is good for at least two good exes.

I'm told that this fuel is sold at the PX in KAF now. Any confirmation on this out there?

 

[RangerRay]

Although I'm a big fan of our winter/arctic gear for operations in the high arctic, as anyone who has ever suffered inside a 10 man tent in a February West Coast downpour knows, our stuff has some definite limitations in mountainous/ alpine terrain, or climatic zones with more extreme temperature variations. I once recall watching the poor old RCR wallowing up Norwegian mountains in deep snow pulling big toboggans on snowshoes while we zoomed around on skis.

Many countries (Norway, Britain, US etc) provide lightweight waterproof 2/4 man tents, alpine touring skis, smaller and lighter pulks or toboggans, MSR type stoves, plastic boots, Gore-tex everything and other similar lightweight gear to their troops to support these kinds of operations. 

Does anyone know if we are likely to develop and deploy similar gear? It would seem to make sense to get ready for these type of operation given that the upcoming winter Olympics in in Whistler.

I have to agree.  The Arctic gear seems to me to be ill suited for the mountains of British Columbia.  Although modern alpine touring skis may be quicker, I think I'd prefer modern snowshoes when moving around sub-alpine forests.  ;D  

 

[daftandbarmy]

I have to agree.  The Arctic gear seems to me to be ill suited for the mountains of British Columbia.  Although modern alpine touring skis may be quicker, I think I'd prefer modern snowshoes when moving around sub-alpine forests.  ;D  

You're onto something there with the modern, MSR-type snowshoes.

The last winter I did in Norway the Norwegian army were trialling battalions equipped with a new alloy snowshoe, similar to the MSR design. It was a huge culture shift for them, but they had problems bringing the conscripts up to standard on skis in the reltively short times they had to train them because the kids were less likely to turn up already knowing how to ski - victims of the mall cuture.

We ran a 6 week AWT program that took up most of Janaury and February of each deployment. By the end, we had novice troops skiing at a realtively good standard; they had to pass a 20km biathlon as a final test. the Norwegian standard was passing a 30km biathlon. It still took another 4-6 weeks of battalion and brigade level training before they became really proficient on skis in most conditions in the mountians. We got even better when we went to a plastic ski and started using synthetic skins. 

If we had had a good technical snowshoe, we wouldn't have been as 'mobile and agile', but we still could have moved a batttalion through the mountains on foot in one piece to do the business and spent more time on the range than on the ski tracks.

 

[Bergeron 971]

Don't want the bottom of yoru tents to stick, QUIT COOKING WITH CHEESE. ;D

The cadet corps I volunteer with has what we call a bush captain.
Shes the CO and is a crazy out doors girl. we had some money donated to buy gear and she bought MEC tents, Rucks, MSR stoves, air mats and cooking sets.
Not used once and a set of stoves went missing under my nose.
I am not a fan of civi gear for cadets, but teh stoves are a great buy.
Something like this, donno the model,
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442372405&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302696549&bmUID=1168919623647

 

[fourninerzero]

Don't want the bottom of yoru tents to stick, QUIT COOKING WITH CHEESE. ;D

The cadet corps I volunteer with has what we call a bush captain.
Shes the CO and is a crazy out doors girl. we had some money donated to buy gear and she bought MEC tents, Rucks, MSR stoves, air mats and cooking sets.
Not used once and a set of stoves went missing under my nose.
I am not a fan of civi gear for cadets, but teh stoves are a great buy.
Something like this, donno the model,
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442372405&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302696549&bmUID=1168919623647

why not a fan of civy gear for cadets exactly? it works great, is readily availible, weighs less (important when dealing with a tiny 13 year old girl on her first ruck march), and is very versitle. everything that CO bought seems like a great purchase for a cadet corps. I wish my Sqn had that sort of stuff when we went on Ex to the field, espically the Exs for Sr cadets involving alot of hiking and such.

im thinking you might wanna stay in your lane on this topic......cadet Exs dont equal Military mountain and artic warfare.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I dunno about that. Light is good for 'real soldiers' too:

Here's a proposed wish list for the consumate montain and arctic warfare soldier (I'm using MEC's stuff as an example):

Alpine touring skis: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?bmUID=1168925991551
Alpine touring bindings: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?bmUID=1168926053810
Alpine touring boots: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?bmUID=1168926076292
(Skins and poles as well)

MSR Denali Snowshoes: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?bmUID=1168926153504

MSR XGK Stove: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?bmUID=1168926226825

Titan Cook Set: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?bmUID=1168926285250

Myobelt headlamp: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?bmUID=1168926364094

Merino Underwear: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?bmUID=1168926458575

3 layer gore-tex shell jacket and pants (I've never had problems with gore-tex in cold conditions): http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?bmUID=1168926483114
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302699263&bmUID=1168926483228

Gore-tex mitts: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302698935&bmUID=1168926655712

Merino wool socks: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302756095&currentPage=2&bmUID=1168926685764

Thor Down bag: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302701483&bmUID=1168926785395

4 season tent for 3-4 pers: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302702873&bmUID=1168926867406

BIG pack, 80 or 95 litre: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?bmUID=1168926962477

 

[fourninerzero]

fair enough, but most cadets and cadet officers have no experence in things of a tactical nature( i know, i was a cadet and am friends of alot of cadet officers. they do a great job, and many are very knowledgeable in the outdoors, but have no idea of how the army works.) and besides, what i got from his post was he was Anti civy kit for the most part, which i disagree with. (i love my lightweight civy stuff, like the MSR stove and warmer wool socks and the like)

anyway, back to the topic at hand.

I would reccommend the Peztl tactikka headlamp (due to the built in red filter)
i also reccommend the Wigwam -40 socks and the wigwam Ice sock. great warm wool socks.


Check out the arcteryx LEAF program stuff...they took alot of their highend civvy stuff and made it military friendly (black, coyote, green in color, arm pockets, etc) and offer it at a discount to mil personnel.

 

[Bergeron 971]

Quick thread jack to answer,
Thing is the cadets do not BIG ruck marchs anymore at LHQ, some do at summer camps. They join to play army so we should show them army gear.
I love civi gear but not for cadets on a weekend, unless it comes in OD. One of the goals of the army cadets is to develop an interested in the canadian forces, we won't do that if they never use any type of military equipment.
And for the price of one of the MEC rucks, we could have bought 4 CF rucks. same goes for the air mats,

Sorry for the thread jack, just explaining my post as I couldn't edit.

 

[NL_engineer]

They join to play army so we should show them army gear.
I love civi gear but not for cadets on a weekend, unless it comes in OD. One of the goals of the army cadets is to develop an interested in the canadian forces, we won't do that if they never use any type of military equipment.

It has be discussed to death in a number of threads on the cadet forms.

I like my civi winter kit a lot more then the issued stuff.  I would much rather see the army spend its R&D money on desert and urban kit, as that is were we will be fighting, for the foreseeable future.

 

[Bergeron 971]

I agree somewhat, There is LOTS of GREAT and durable Civi gear that could be easily implemented into the system, or made with cadpat to make some happy. I know lots of the US gear is civi gear contracted to the military in military fabrics, etc.
same goes with LOTS of stuff for Desert and Urban gear, when a country like the US and the UK spend millions upon millions in RnD. why should we? we should research in their findings and pick and choose from what they test and develop. That money could be easily spent on more important things in the system,
When the system thinks a IR laser and personal comms a hi-tech advancement.... they've been on the market for years. The US and Brit's have used them for a while now.
we could have just jumped on the band wagon on those aspects of RnD. 2 or 3 heads are better then one. (meaning us doing our own thing cause some think we know better or any other reason some may have. I believe joint projects have always ended with better results.
what you guys think?

 

[3rd Herd]

A certain well qualified ex RCR, CAR, Sgt. type mentions in his book that the best solution for this topic was a mixture of issue and off the shelf purchase. Next as for going for long walks up and down mountains in the Columbia river area last winter, temp down to -35 at times this seemed to work out well. I think key words are "lose and layered". In December cadets who chose spent the night out in improvised shelters and dual bags and all enjoyed the experience. Sorel's the old issue and civilian versions cannot be beat, but Sorel went under reorganization resulting in off shore manufacture off a very cheap product. If you can find a pair of the old original models nothing comes close to keeping the feet nice and warm. How many remember how to make "field expedients" snow shoes? As for the cadet issue of clothing use what ever works the best. Thanks GO for the tip on the stove and daftandbarmy for the list. Also not all winter is the same, the high Arctic is considered a "dry climate" despite all the white stuff on the ground. While the west coast has winds and rain is not only in the winter can be an interesting place to stay warm and dry. Ran into some older Norwegian students the other week and was asked if I was going out on exercise. I asked why they thought that they pointed out the way my ruck was loaded. This they remember from seeing as children back in the dinosaur days of the Cold war. Also stated was how much they liked and enjoyed us verses our neighbors to the south.

 

[Bergeron 971]

My favorite winter equipment is the Igloo kit, LOW TECH  ;D but could save lives

 

[darmil]

The US army is looking to get next generation winter gearhttp://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2007/January/ArmySelects.htm

 

[Matt_Fisher]

The US army is looking to get next generation winter gearhttp://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2007/January/ArmySelects.htm

ECWCS Gen II; It's already been fielded to 10th Mountain Division and has been talked about quite a bit on www.lightfighter.net

 

[KevinB]

When the system thinks a IR laser and personal comms a hi-tech advancement.... they've been on the market for years. The US and Brit's have used them for a while now.

Uhm,  If you seen the UK forces in the field -- you'd know the CF is MILES ahead of them in both of the areas you mentioned...

 

[vigillis]

I would like to give my opinion on Gore-tex like materials in High Arctic conditions.  After a short period of time at -25 the pores in the membrane clog with your perspiration.  This means that that after a week's worth of sweating you will be wearing an article of clothing that is very damp and uncomfortable.  At those temps not even a five man tent with two Coleman two burners can dry out anything.  Down is the only way to go WRT long High Arctic deployments.  Take a look at Canada Goose

http://www.canada-goose.com/products/viewproduct.aspx?prodid=57&langid=1

The CRPGs have an allowance for Instructors to go out and purchase what we think we need for the conditions we work in.  That being said not all COs think that way, so some times if one person wants we all have to have it mentality raises it ugly head.

BTW the higher you go the less you need snowshoes, the colder it gets the more the nylon fabric your tent is made of shrinks, and if you really want to stay warm dress like the natives.

 

[CanadianGuy]

Goretex is not needed in cold temps and in fact is highly detrimental to the individual wearing it, it protects mainly against H20 from the outside and obviously in dry cold this is not a problem. It will cause moisture build up in the clothing/sleeping bag which will degrade the insulating effects. Here is a link to an excellent article on cold weather clothing, pay attention to the part on the "dew point" and how it effects goretex clothing;

http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/physed/research/people/giesbrecht/Cold_Weather_Clothing.pdf

Bottom line is that Goretex will cause you to get progressively colder the longer you wear it in the dry cold.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Agreed.

Even the big time polar explorers like Sir Ranulph Fiennes still use windproof cotton (and Finnes apparently loves our CF arctic mitts, a good vote of confidence). But in mountainous conditions (and this IS a thread about mountain warfare gear), especially near the coast, temperatures can fluctuate from 'raining' to 20 below or so, often in very short periods of time. IMHO this makes Gore-tex type material safer and far more practical than other materials where long term extreme cold is not the norm.

 

[CanadianGuy]

I agree with you daftandbarmy and a good Goretex rainjacket/pants (such as will soon be issued) would be a good option for such weather conditions. The mountaineering community also uses the Pertex/pile type clothing such as Buffalo and Snugpak sell;

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/dp3rollover.htm

http://www.snugpak.com/30_codegreen/33_02_pileshirt_popup.htm

This is a different type of clothing system that offers high water repellency and good moisture transfer, what a mountaineer wants. I've got the Snugpak Pile shirt and it is outstanding and does what the Pile/Pertex clothing claims to do. Here is a link to an article about this style of clothing;

http://www.needlesports.com/gearreviews/buffalo.htm

 

[KevinB]

The biggest problem in this entire issue is that Tease the Soldier and to a degree Soldier Systems and DLR has missed out that we need certain niche items.
  Some items are good for multirole -- some suck ass

I went to the USMC Mountain Warfare Training Center in Bridgeport Ca. in Feb 1996  - We had no Gortex, all the old "legacy" kit.
  You cannot work effectively in that manner
- BEST was we left our C7A1's in the USMC weapon lockup the entire time since the OC did not want us ruining more C79's...

We basically raided the MEC in town prior to going down - sicne we knew that while our kit was GTG for Baffin Island -- it was not cold wet weather suitable.

Now we have a mix of kit -- some is GTG for Cold Wet -- and now sucks for the High Arctic -- and some that still sucks for Cold Wet and/or Mountain work.

A good High Arctic tobaggan is NOT going to work in Wet Cold - or Mountainous terrain...
  Same with personal gear - other than maybe the underwear.