MP getting back to green??

[TheRock198]

Hey,

I ear rumours saying that MP are getting back to green in a short while....???  What's that BS....Any infos on that???

We are always the last to know things...

 

[captjtq]

What do you mean by 'getting back to green'?

 

[tree hugger]

Meaning no longer a purple trade?

 

[Dissident]

AFAIK, these are unsubstantiated rumors.

With the RCMP taking laterals, there are a lot of unknowns and a bit of fear. From hearing people talk around here, it often sounds like almost everyone wants to go to the RCMP, so I am sure this is worrying a few people higher up the chain. This doesn't even include all the other police forces who will surely follow suite and also take MP laterally.

The trade is already tight, manning wise. If we loose 400 to laterals, it doesn't leave much of anything. The one solution to this, that almost everyone comes up with is: reg MPs loose the dom policing role and go back to what amounts to the old C pro C, more or less.

Before everyone runs for the hill, I would wait and see what happens with laterals and retention in general. Well, thats easy for me to say, MY job won't change...

 

[garb811]

The Retention Working Group only started this week and the CFPM and staff have only just begun to explore the other implications of not only the RCMP issue, but also the high Op Tempo and its impact, along with several other issues, on domestic policing.  The Guardhouses are not/not being shut down (at least not today).

Even if this was true, you would not get a confirmation from anyone in the know on these means, as with the CFPM email, this is a CofC issue due to the impact, not something you're going to get anonymously on the web.

RUMINT on anything related to the future/direction of the Branch over the next few months will get you nothing but an upset feeling and a bunch of grief.  Watch and shoot! 

 

[mover1]

this note was edited because i was out to lunch in my assumption on the RCMP NOT taking MP's as laterals.

I was wrong. I took the post off.

 

[CombatMP265]

The Retention Working Group only started this week and the CFPM and staff have only just begun to explore the other implications of not only the RCMP issue, but also the high Op Tempo and its impact, along with several other issues, on domestic policing.  The Guardhouses are not/not being shut down (at least not today).

Even if this was true, you would not get a confirmation from anyone in the know on these means, as with the CFPM email, this is a CofC issue due to the impact, not something you're going to get anonymously on the web.

RUMINT on anything related to the future/direction of the Branch over the next few months will get you nothing but an upset feeling and a bunch of grief.  Watch and shoot! 

Having talked a bit with those who are currently attending the Retention Working Group myself. I can say that this 'going green' nonsense is just a rumour. As for the number mentioned by Dissident, right now the number I've heard being thrown around is more like 100. But even that's a tremendous blow to the branch and just rumours.

Not to derail the thread, but if the branch does lose a significant amount than who thinks the branch will have to step up its 'Field Capacity' with low level training from the very beginning (for all MP QL3's) in order to further deviate its perceived role as just 'policemen'?

 

[Dissident]

As for the number mentioned by Dissident, right now the number I've heard being thrown around is more like 100.

I pulled 400 out of my ass, as a worst case type of scenario. My extrapolation (which, admittedly might be completely out to lunch) from what I hear from the guys here, make me think that: loosing 100 people to laterals to other police force in the short term, sounds desperately optimistic.

But hey, I'm out of my lane.

 

[Rowshambow]

Question for you MP's about retention,  Is their any thoughts (from those of you in the know) of going back to how it was a few years ago, and recruit from soldiers that are already serving members (i.e. Inf, Armd, Navy, etc..trained soldiers) I know you still do take them currently, but don't you need some type of Diploma? Now this wouldn't be a problem, but with the current TFA rotos, I know many people who just don't have the time to get schooling? Could going back to that type of recruitment help? I know a few ex CBT Arms guys who are MP's and love it, and from what I hear they are good at their jobs.

 

[garb811]

The biggest problem for the Branch regarding this issue is there really is no way to "guesstimate" how many people are going to go. 

Halifax isn't a good example as HRP is tiny (350) compared to the RCMP (24,000) with limited capacity to integrate a surge of laterals but they've managed (or will manage) to take at least 12 MPs from Halifax over the course of about a year.  With about 100 NCMs in Halifax, that's an attrition rate of around 12%, extrapolate that to the entire Branch which has 1150 NCMs (plus or minus) and that'd be 137, already 1/3 more than the Branch appears to be planning for.  Throw in 10% "normal" attrition and you're looking at about 250 guys gone in a year.  Even if you dropped "normal" attrition to 5% to cover off the guys who went RCMP who were gong to leave anyway and the number is still bad, with 195 guys gone in a year.

The biggest problem between trying to guesstimate the number using Halifax as an example is it's really trying to compare apples and oranges in many respects.  Unlike Halifax, the RCMP has the size to take as many MPs as want to go without seriously impacting their current operations because these aren't positions coming vacant over the next year, the positions are vacant NOW.  Similarly, while Halifax is attractive to MPs who are under the 10 year mark, it isn't all that attractive to many MPs over 10 due to pension whereas a MP can roll his pension over into the RCMP pension.  Similarly, unless you want to spend the rest of your life in Halifax (or are planning yet another lateral transfer down the road) there isn't much sense in going to HRP, whereas with the RCMP you can end up almost anywhere your heart desires...

Not that I want to be a doom and gloom guy as I love my trade but I concur with Dissident, 100 is probably going to be well below the number who actually go in relation to this.  My SWAG at the number is in the vicinity of 300-350 guys over the course of 2 years over and above regular attrition and it could snowball even worse depending to how the Branch and CF reacts.  I also suspect the Branch is going to be losing people at ranks they aren't even worried about at this point; I already know several of my peers who although "old" are still young enough to have a second career in policing and are giving this serious consideration.

Not to derail the thread, but if the branch does lose a significant amount than who thinks the branch will have to step up its 'Field Capacity' with low level training from the very beginning (for all MP QL3's) in order to further deviate its perceived role as just 'policemen'?

Sorry, not quite following what you mean here, do you mean just go to a Mobilizatin scenario and train some Reg Force MPs for Field Ops only in the short term...?    ???

Rowshambow:  Been awhile since I checked but as far as I know OTs don't need a full diploma, just a few credits in appropriate subjects.  You are right though, given Op Tempo even this is hard for many to obtain.

 

[SweetNavyJustice]

I'm new to the branch (as in not even trained yet), but I do have 10 1/2 years in the CF, and I've found the idea of loosing a significant number of people in the trade an interesting one. 

My first trade in the CF (NESOP) was one that typically was considered a "red" trade and was often significantly under staffed.  As a way to deal with the problem they gave the members spec pay.  This pay off has seemed to work, however since the MP NCM's already get spec pay this is not necessarily enough incentive to keep them around. 

One of the best officers in the CF that I have had the pleasure to serve with once said to me "What is your goal?  My job as your boss is to ensure that you get to your goal.  In return, you do the best job possible for me which makes our unit run well, and provides me with a good evaluation"  This whole idea seemed so simple, yet so perfect. 

As a future manager in the branch, if people working with me wanted a life outside of the CF and had desired to work for a civilian force, I would do my best to support them and help them with their goal.  Will this hurt the branch?  Yes, it likely would hurt in the short run however, if these people want out and don't want a life in the CF than I'd rather they leave.  There are people who believe in the work we do, and want a career working in the CF and are not merely using it as a stepping stone.  This is not to say that those looking to leave have not done a good job or were poor members of the CF but consider this, if you're always dreaming about what is on the other side of the fence how can you possibly be doing the best job in your own yard and at the same time be happy with it. 

I see the future of our retention issues as being to be able to find a way to increase job satisfaction, and to provide for opportunities where people can be challenged and given a chance for self promotion.  Ultimately, if you are happy where you are, and in what you are doing, you won't need to look elsewhere. 

For those who choose to leave - good luck, and for those looking for a career in the CF - welcome. 

 

[Dissident]

You are in for a tough reality check.

 

[FastEddy]

I'm new to the branch (as in not even trained yet), but I do have 10 1/2 years in the CF. 

I see the future of our retention issues as being to be able to find a way to increase job satisfaction, and to provide for opportunities where people can be challenged and given a chance for self promotion.  Ultimately, if you are happy where you are, and in what you are doing, you won't need to look elsewhere. 

For those who choose to leave - good luck, and for those looking for a career in the CF - welcome. 

I couldn't agree more with "Dissident". I would agree that your sentiments are in the right place, but, are you in for a few surprises.

I'm afraid your outlook is almost tantamount to wearing rose colored glasses. (theres nothing wrong with that I suppose).

But I find it interesting that a Member with your Service, should now wish to transfer to the MP. Any hints ?.

Cheers.

 

[SweetNavyJustice]

I don't think that I'm fooling myself as to the challenges that face the branch in the future wrt attrition, I just don't see the point in trying to devise a way to keep people who don't want to be here. 

A better solution would be to answer the question "why do they want to leave", and to see if you can accommodate their needs professionally. 

All I'm suggesting is that I'd rather be short staffed with people around me who want to do the job, then to be surrounded by people who are looking to leave.  I don't think this is a rose coloured vision. 

Let me open this question up to the board to see where it goes:  If you are considering leaving, why and is there a change that could be made that would have you consider staying?

As to FastEddy's question as to why the MP's with my background, because I like the diversity that the branch has to offer.  I can work in operations at a guard house, perhaps investigations at another det., do a turn helping to write policy that will shape the future of the branch, or work doing CI or C-HUMINT.  I also appreciate what the CF offers as an employer.  I've worked civi side (not as a police officer), and from my experience there I can truly appreciate the comforts we are afforded. 

 

[FastEddy]

I don't think that I'm fooling myself as to the challenges that face the branch in the future wrt attrition, I just don't see the point in trying to devise a way to keep people who don't want to be here. 

A better solution would be to answer the question "why do they want to leave", and to see if you can accommodate their needs professionally. 

All I'm suggesting is that I'd rather be short staffed with people around me who want to do the job, then to be surrounded by people who are looking to leave.  I don't think this is a rose coloured vision. 

Let me open this question up to the board to see where it goes:  If you are considering leaving, why and is there a change that could be made that would have you consider staying?

As to FastEddy's question as to why the MP's with my background, because I like the diversity that the branch has to offer.  I can work in operations at a guard house, perhaps investigations at another det., do a turn helping to write policy that will shape the future of the branch, or work doing CI or C-HUMINT.  I also appreciate what the CF offers as an employer.  I've worked civi side (not as a police officer), and from my experience there I can truly appreciate the comforts we are afforded. 

I'm sure that the MP are flattered to hear that there is so much diversity in their Branch, as for the other Branch's, I'm not quite sure.

I'm also sure that practically all of our Armed Forces are now and before are aware of the Benefits that a career in them offer.

As for the reasoning for your Branch Transfer. I find you seem to have a fixation on "Comfort" & "Cushy".
I can assure you that nothing could be further from the truth concerning Law Enforcement and the MP.

As for your aspirations to be instrumental in revolutionary changes, good luck .

You seem to have omitted one very important statement or reason, "We all wanted to be LEO's", for those with a passion for the Military Life, the Military Police, was like having your cake and eating it !. You might be a late bloomer, but forgive me if I have my reservations on that matter.

Cheers.

 

[garb811]

Let me open this question up to the board to see where it goes:  If you are considering leaving, why and is there a change that could be made that would have you consider staying?

That's the million dollar question that the Branch just spent considerable time, effort and money in trying to figure out.  Unfortunately I think the process was flawed in many ways and the Headshed didn't get a complete picture of the problem except for perhaps junior members of the Branch because of the method by which the survey was administered and the questions which were asked.

Having been giving this issue some thought even prior to the announcement as I've been on the 30/30 plan for awhile now, there are a bunch of current dissatisfiers in my career, none of which I suspect the Branch is going to try to address in the ongoing RWG.  I also highly suspect that the "fixes" to come are only going to make matters worse from my perspective, but this certainly isn't the place to air my dirty laundry. 

The biggest problems facing the Branch have been building since the FRP/SIU stand down fiasco, Samson's move to being and recruiting "cops" vice "MPs" and the subsequent recruiting incentives to achieve this without implementing any kind of concurrent retention incentives/initiatives.  There will be no quick fixes, particularly since the powers that be refuse to even acknowledge the concerns of the 20+ crowd with their fixation on appeasing the 10- crowd.  As I said previously, possibly in another thread, depending on how this issue is handled, the Branch could find itself short not only Jr NCOs but also those at the WOs and Sgt ranks.  This would be a huge problem as although you can crisis manage by robbing Peter to pay Paul while you get a Cpl on the road in a year, it takes considerably longer than that to get someone with the training and experience to properly supervise them and run a Guardhouse/NIS Det etc etc.  Even without the RCMP issue the Branch was heading for a trainwreck as 7 year Sgts became the norm vice the very rare exception as the 20+ year guys left and the insta-Cpls went through the gate at the minimum times required in rank.

 

[QV]

That's the million dollar question

IMHO I don't think Spec Pay 2, 3 or 23 would change the minds of most people set to get out.  I believe all the things that need to change are the things that will never change.  Just to give you an example:  I work shift work, so I am working at a minimum of 12 hours at a stretch for 4 to 5 days in a row, alternating between day shifts and night shifts.  At least 2 or 3 times a month I have to stay a couple of hours over time.  In the last month I have been called in twice after trying to sleep after my night shift.  Once that block of shifts end I should (by the schedule) have 4 to 5 days off until my next block starts.

However here is a list of typical things I am scheduled (ordered) to do on my "days off" in this last month anyway:

Range day X 2
UOF re-qual - 3 days
Fire extinguisher famil  (stupid stupid stupid)
Court X 2 days
PSO qual 1 day  (I am not even deployable - just got back from a'stan)
NBCD re-qual - 1 day

There isn't a lot of time left in the month to spend with my family, house chores, vehicle maintanence...ect.

Now lets add in the deployments, TAVs (6 to 10 'week' long Tavs a year), field excercises (3 a year) and courses like PLQ, invest, accident investigator...ect..

And then consider this:
We don't get compensated for stat holidays
We don't get long weekends (unless you are a day worker)
We don't get paid for overtime or working on our days off but we DO get called in frequently
We don't get days off in lieu of the days they make us work when we are supposed to be off.
We don't get shift premium pay or shift differential pay
We don't get stood down early like the rest of the base on Fridays - ever

And some particular stuff that pertains to my unit (and hopefully only my unit)
-We don't get to apply for two short (only our CWO does - leading by example as usual)
-We don't get to regularly take holidays in the spring, summer or fall (leave passes cancelled routinely) and then we get in shit for having too much annual holidays left by January... which results in everyone having to burn off leave in the worst month of the year.
-I was lucky enough to swindle my way into having a bit more then a week off a little while ago and the god damned office called my house everyday for 5 days in a row - and NO I don't have any outstanding files on the go.  I didn't answer the phone.  I still don't know what they called for.


So those are some of the things that will push a lot of people out.  The RCMP and muni police forces properly compensate their members where the MP branch does not.  That is a huge thing when you consider the quality of life differences between MP and civilian police.  Where the MP branch does not have to pay overtime or credit time off for working on your days off - this calling people in to work when they should be off gets severely abused because no one is held accountable.  So with respect to retention we will see what happens over the next little while.
 

 

[FastEddy]

IMHO I don't think Spec Pay 2, 3 or 23 would change the minds of most people set to get out.  I believe all the things that need to change are the things that will never change.  Just to give you an example:  I work shift work, so I am working at a minimum of 12 hours at a stretch for 4 to 5 days in a row, alternating between day shifts and night shifts.  At least 2 or 3 times a month I have to stay a couple of hours over time.  In the last month I have been called in twice after trying to sleep after my night shift.  Once that block of shifts end I should (by the schedule) have 4 to 5 days off until my next block starts.

However here is a list of typical things I am scheduled (ordered) to do on my "days off" in this last month anyway:

Range day X 2
UOF re-qual - 3 days
Fire extinguisher famil  (stupid stupid stupid)
Court X 2 days
PSO qual 1 day  (I am not even deployable - just got back from a'stan)
NBCD re-qual - 1 day

There isn't a lot of time left in the month to spend with my family, house chores, vehicle maintanence...ect.

Now lets add in the deployments, TAVs (6 to 10 'week' long Tavs a year), field excercises (3 a year) and courses like PLQ, invest, accident investigator...ect..

And then consider this:
We don't get compensated for stat holidays
We don't get long weekends (unless you are a day worker)
We don't get paid for overtime or working on our days off but we DO get called in frequently
We don't get days off in lieu of the days they make us work when we are supposed to be off.
We don't get shift premium pay or shift differential pay
We don't get stood down early like the rest of the base on Fridays - ever

And some particular stuff that pertains to my unit (and hopefully only my unit)
-We don't get to apply for two short (only our CWO does - leading by example as usual)
-We don't get to regularly take holidays in the spring, summer or fall (leave passes cancelled routinely) and then we get in crap for having too much annual holidays left by January... which results in everyone having to burn off leave in the worst month of the year.
-I was lucky enough to swindle my way into having a bit more then a week off a little while ago and the god damned office called my house everyday for 5 days in a row - and NO I don't have any outstanding files on the go.  I didn't answer the phone.  I still don't know what they called for.


So those are some of the things that will push a lot of people out.  The RCMP and muni police forces properly compensate their members where the MP branch does not.  That is a huge thing when you consider the quality of life differences between MP and civilian police.  Where the MP branch does not have to pay overtime or credit time off for working on your days off - this calling people in to work when they should be off gets severely abused because no one is held accountable.  So with respect to retention we will see what happens over the next little while.
 

Well that should answere a few of "SweetNavyJustice" points on all of the MP Diversification.

There's no doubt in my mind that the above conditions exist at your Unit, (And God only knows at how many other).

Compared to you, Civi PD's are a Club Med. lol.

Cheers.

 

[aesop081]

However here is a list of typical things I am scheduled (ordered) to do on my "days off" in this last month anyway:

Range day X 2
UOF re-qual - 3 days
Fire extinguisher famil  (stupid stupid stupid)
Court X 2 days
PSO qual 1 day  (I am not even deployable - just got back from a'stan)
NBCD re-qual - 1 day

There isn't a lot of time left in the month to spend with my family, house chores, vehicle maintanence...ect.

Now lets add in the deployments, TAVs (6 to 10 'week' long Tavs a year), field excercises (3 a year) and courses like PLQ, invest, accident investigator...ect..

And then consider this:
We don't get compensated for stat holidays
We don't get long weekends (unless you are a day worker)
We don't get paid for overtime or working on our days off but we DO get called in frequently
We don't get days off in lieu of the days they make us work when we are supposed to be off.
We don't get shift premium pay or shift differential pay
We don't get stood down early like the rest of the base on Fridays - ever

QV, if it makes you feel better, its the same way for me

 

[SweetNavyJustice]

Great post QV!

As someone just coming into the branch it's important for me to hear what it is like, and the problems that people are facing especially as it pertains to keeping people happy with their careers. 

I've talked to a number of MP's who never even see their officers unless it's when their coming to work in the morning, or heading home. 

How to solve people being overworked when we're facing ever increasing staff shortages is definitely a valid concern. 

Thanks for the comments.