MPs caught mud wrestling

[RCA]

And when shit hits the fan at smokers, the CO wears it.

Granted, the CO/OC might have no direct knowledge, but certain SNCO would at least heard, and might have suggested a better way to let off steam. And regardless of circumstances, it is known as maintaining good order and discipline and not been prudish about bare breasts. Iraq is not Mardi Gras, and yes, female soldiers are expected to keep a higher standard then their female college sisters.

If this was an singularly isolated incident, ha ha and move on. But as we all know, as with the situation with the Airborne, these thinks take a life of its own, and no good can come from it.

 

[Paul Gagnon]

The US fascination with breasts is downright unhealthy...not that they're fascinated, but that it's seen as such a big deal.  I thought the Puritans died out...

So many things that are inconcequential make the front page in the 'States. That Puritan heritage seems to have shaped many Amerrican mores. It is doubtfful that their influence will ever be removed and they will continually get all worked up about nothing.

 

[mdh]

If I ever wind up in the CF again and see a guy with a camera anyplace near me I'm going to give him one warning to get rid of it, then if he/she doesn't comply I'm going to break it!

MDH- the press will say any and everything to get themselves and their slimy journalistic careers noticed. If they have to do it on the back of soldiers you can bet that they won't think twice about it. Posting an article like that only helps their cause.

Think on it...

Slim

I did think on it which is why I changed the post.   The original intent was hasty and ill-conceived - and I was called on it - which is the way it should be on this fine forum.

However, I don't regret posting a legitimate news item.   Not all journalists are "slimy" and I've dealt with a lot of them over the years.   It seems to me that in instances like this we're better off shooting someone in the chain of command - not the messenger, cheers, mdh

 

[Ammogod]

Come guy's most of us have been on tour or on Ex, and would have loved to see a few 19 yr old hard bodies mud wrestling in the mud, For me that would be a memory I would charse, As for camera's There is nothing worse then being at a Smoker and some A$$ brings out a camera, to show the folks back home what a great time we are having, Next thing you know all the wife's on the base your at think your overseas having a great time.

Been there

It has cost some great family men a lot of unnecessary stress.

 

[Franko]

Come guy's most of us have been on tour or on Ex, and would have loved to see a few 19 yr old hard bodies mud wrestling in the mud.........It has cost some great family men a lot of unnecessary stress.

That's what R&R is for.....at least for the majority of the troops who think before they do anything that may bite them in the arse when they get home.

Regards

 

[dutchie]

Come guy's most of us have been on tour or on Ex, and would have loved to see a few 19 yr old hard bodies mud wrestling in the mudIt has cost some great family men a lot of unnecessary stress.

Never dip your pen in company ink.

 

[I_Drive_Planes]

partly to US Army personnel policies that we would probably consider draconian

Just out of curiosity which policies are you referring to?  The word "draconian" automatically piques my interest  ;D

 

[Thompson_JM]

Inapropriate, but the media coverage is definatly over the top.... i say deal with it, and move on... sadly as has already been stated the US seems to be Breast Obsessed.


Cheers
  Josh

 

[mdh]

Breasts? Did you say breasts on this site? Where?  

 

[Bert]

Alot of this is perspective and security ROs.

While on base or on deployment, there are areas and situations where cameras are
not allowed.  This is controllable or should be by the chain of command.  In situations
or areas where cameras may be allowed, sometimes a well timed buddy photo of a towel
falling off or pic of a practical joke can be taken out of context or seen beyond the scope
of the unit.  The internet provides an easy way to distribute anything and everyone has
an opinion.

I'm not in the US military and won't judge if any rules were broken by the participants or
the guy with the camera.   Taht may be another issue.  However, I understand completely
Slim's fear of a buddy taking pics with a camera and then distributing the pics.  Anything
anyone does can come under scrutiny whether its fair or not.  Without having an context
of the situation other than the article, the guy who submitted the pics sounds like a
simple "platoon fu**er".  

 

[pbi]

Just out of curiosity which policies are you referring to?   The word "draconian" automatically piques my interest   ;D

IMHO the most important phrase in my sentence is "...that we would consider...".  Therefore the word "draconian" is a relative one depending on who you are. Three policies that I have observed here at first hand include US Army (Active and Res) doing one year tours as a minimum; extensions of several months with very little warning; and re-touring with less than a year's interlude (we do that do but it is a heavily waivered process-here it seems to be done with no questions asked). These policies are not universal: USMC here do 6-7 months, while Airforce do 3-4. Army Reserve Doctors do 90 days.

As well, I have also observed that the US system appears to do considerably less for its most junior people than we would be used to. Two examples are: leave travel while deployed: their leave allowance on an operation is considerably less generous than ours, and they do not get the "turnkey" leave travel planning service we get: most of it is apparently left to the individual to sort out on their own; second, I have noted that there does not seem to be the effort made to rotate people to keep them fresh: soldiers doing 12-hour shifts on tower duty for  a year, and duty officers doing twelve on/twelve off, for a year, with no days off except leave.

Be careful not to interpret my comments as a slight on the US Army: they are struggling with manpower, retention and operational issues at the same time that they are trying to undergo a Transformation considerably more radical than ours. They are in general far more mission focused than we are, because they have very little choice.

Cheers.

 

[I_Drive_Planes]

I'd be really interested to know the psychological effect of working people that hard, under that kind of stress, for those periods of time.  It can't be good, and they wonder why they have a retention problem.

 

[Slim]

Although I have never attended university or college I have many friends that have...

And I have to say that the stuff THEY do is ten times worse than anything the CF has ever done (including the CAR stuff!!) yet no one ever seems to take them to task over it?!

I think that the press knows that filthy stuff involving female members of the armed forces (theirs or ours...) will sell papers, where as everyone expects college kids (who are roughly the same age as this lot) to do silly things.

MDH

Sorry...I didn't realize that you already had teethmarks in your...post ;D or I wouldn't have spoken.

Cheers

Slim

 

[pbi]

I'd be really interested to know the psychological effect of working people that hard, under that kind of stress, for those periods of time.   It can't be good, and they wonder why they have a retention problem.

Well, as I tried to point out, it is all relative. If we treated soldiers in 2005 as we treated them in 1955, we would have some issues too (not suggesting that the US Army pers policies are outdated-do not misunderstand me...). Expectations are totally different now, although the soldiers in 1955 likely thought themselves far better treated than soldiers in 1915. 

Our Canadian expectations of how the military will treat us are very high: I daresay the highest in the world, all things considered. And that is important: the global situation in a military force. US Army soldiers are, in my opinion, more accepting of hardship and deprivation than we would be, because the GWOT gives them a very clear mission focus. As well, IMHO their junior people do not expect as much as ours do, so they are generally OK with stuff that we would bitch about like crazy.

All that said, my conversations here have led me to believe that the US Army in particular, and especially the ARNG and USAR, is experiencing (or will shortly experience...) serious recruiting and retention issues that do not seem to be as critical in the other US services. I stress that this is not a scientfic study but more of a survey of opinion from a number of different ranks and components over six months. I stand ready to be corrected by any of our US friend on this site.

Cheers.

 

[childs56]

For all of you that say cameras are bad, I will say i think you are wrong, to blame an individual for taking pictures is wrong> if you do the crime you do the time, to say. we seem to place our blame on everyone else, except our selves. When i was in Bosnia i video taped some local police officers dealing drugs, After the local IPTF seen the tape they said well if you hadnt taken the tape their would be no evidnce of this happening, so dont so it agian. I got alittle un even tempered at this comment. needless to say i said a few words and was told to shut it by the Sgt Major. I was then ordered by my chain of command to cease using my camera on patrols. Well lets see, what if you do a search and want to tape the contents of a car or a house, a great way to make note of the stuff inside. Well a couple weeks later i was asked to use my camera to tape a local gathering of some  VIP's, you knwo the ones no one like, any ways i did this and got 8 hrs of not much to gawk at.  another example was when we had charge bags ignite on the Gun line during an excercise, caused a huge scare and some damage to the gun, well i pulled out my trusty camera and took some pics of which a few were handed in to the higher ups for initial review. These pics were the first and formost of that accident, they had real time accuracy of nothing being disturbed, so they were good pics.
At the end of the day we all have to use our heads as to what and how we do things. if we think it is wrong then dont do it. The people with the cameras have provided us with some real good pictures of actual combat and other great things liek smiles on the locals faces, so lets not be hasty in out decsions here,..
One last thing the last person who kicked, and broke a piece of my personalle equipent payed dearly for it. think twice before destroying a persons camera or other property, it may come back to haunt you.

Guys take care and remember smile  your on camera

 

[COBRA-6]

Although I have never attended university or college I have many friends that have...

And I have to say that the stuff THEY do is ten times worse than anything the CF has ever done (including the CAR stuff!!) yet no one ever seems to take them to task over it?!

I think that the press knows that filthy stuff involving female members of the armed forces (theirs or ours...) will sell papers, where as everyone expects college kids (who are roughly the same age as this lot) to do silly things.

I spent three years in residence at university, and all I can say is that you got that right! lol... never underestimate the ability of college age kids to find/make trouble... or the ability of the media to sensationalize the smallest story into the next nipplegate... you see more boobs at a hip concert for god's sake...

Also, every time I hear "reserve military police battalion" or "civil affairs brigade" it blows my mind...

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

CTD you'll make a great reporter one day.  Its not the fact that people are taking pictures or video.  Its when those pictures or video or used in part but not as a hole therefore creating the possiblity of misconcerptions ie Rodney King.

 

[pbi]

After the local IPTF seen the tape they said well if you hadnt taken the tape their would be no evidnce of this happening, so dont so it agian. I got alittle un even tempered at this comment. needless to say i said a few words and was told to shut it by the Sgt Major. I was then ordered by my chain of command to cease using my camera on patrols.

Really? Are you saying that the chain of command conspired with IPTF to hide local police wrongdoing?

Cheers

 

[mdh]

Well, as I tried to point out, it is all relative. If we treated soldiers in 2005 as we treated them in 1955, we would have some issues too (not suggesting that the US Army pers policies are outdated-do not misunderstand me...). Expectations are totally different now, although the soldiers in 1955 likely thought themselves far better treated than soldiers in 1915.  

Our Canadian expectations of how the military will treat us are very high: I daresay the highest in the world, all things considered. And that is important: the global situation in a military force. US Army soldiers are, in my opinion, more accepting of hardship and deprivation than we would be, because the GWOT gives them a very clear mission focus. As well, IMHO their junior people do not expect as much as ours do, so they are generally OK with stuff that we would ***** about like crazy.

All that said, my conversations here have led me to believe that the US Army in particular, and especially the ARNG and USAR, is experiencing (or will shortly experience...) serious recruiting and retention issues that do not seem to be as critical in the other US services. I stress that this is not a scientfic study but more of a survey of opinion from a number of different ranks and components over six months. I stand ready to be corrected by any of our US friend on this site.


PBI,

Your post sparked something I've been thinking about.   I remember reading a book by the journalist David Frum, a history of the 1970s, in which he noted that the US military became increasingly detached and isolated from mainstream society in the wake of the Vietnam War.   The   US Army in particular suffered severe recruiting problems after the draft was lifted.   It seemed that military culture became more and more isolated - if not utterly inimical to the pop culture mores of the era. (Having lived through the 70s as a cadet and vry young reservist I can remember the almost relentless hostility to all things military, having short hair was an invitation to confrontation).

I'm wondering from your rather unique vantage point if you think the US Army is too conservative as an institution (given current social trends in America) and that given factors such as Hollywood's nearly unanimous opposition (and the impact pop culture inevitably has on young people) to the war in Iraq whether or not we're seeing a possible reaction against the military brewing - a kind of broad swing back to the cynicism and skepticism of those times?

I know these are very different times, a very different war, but any war has a tendency to exhaust a society and engender profound reaction - (think of post- WWI and the pacifism it inspired, think of WW2 and the angry young men of the 1950s.)

When I think about the incident with Rumsfeld where an outspoken soldier managed to embarrass a Secretary of Defense, the Ward Churchill incident, falling recruitment, the mounting casualties, etc, I do wonder if we're seeing a sea change.   Not very scientific or even systematic but still....

Cheers, mdh

 

[pbi]

I don't think the US Army is isolated from its society. Rather, quite the opposite. I think the US Army to a great extent reflects "real" mainstream America much more than the opinons of the Rodeo Drive set. America has aways had (IMHO) great wellsprings of social conservatism, and from time to time these become the driving force in society: I would offer the US in the 1950's as an example. I believe they are holding sway in the US now. There is little doubt in my mind that the same conservative social trends that are so powerful in the US are reflected in the make up of the Army, particularly when I see so many ARNG and USAR soldiers, "citizen soldiers" whom we normally consider to be even more reliable indicators of society than Regular soldiers.

Organized religion, for example, plays a much bigger role in US society and politics than it does in Canada. Likewise in the US Army. For example, we start each working day here with a scriptural quote read by the CJTF Chaplain, as part of the morning shift change brief procedure. Now, as Canadians, with our almost ingrained belief in the separation of religion from government and its agencies, this would seem odd (some might even find it threatening...) but to the US folks here it is SOP. I do not say this to mock or fault the US: merely to make an observation.

I think we need to be careful not to overdo the attrition/retention thing. Yes, it is (or is rumoured to be) signifcant. Is the US Army falling apart. No. Is it combat incapable? No.

Does it mean that the US Army is cut off from society, or becoming irrelevant to mainstream thought? No, I don't think so. My feeling is that the US Army (especially its Reserve component) had an inept and ill-focused recruiting program that produced a disproportionate number of "job-seekers". When "the bell" went, these people realized that they were going to have to ante up and I think that a number of them don't like it. And, BTW, IMHO in the past we have had similar stupid recruiting with similar unhappy results (see other threads on this site...)

When I think about the incident with Rumsfeld where an outspoken soldier managed to embarrass a Secretary of Defense

I would say that the jury is out in the US Army as to whether or not he actually embarassed the SecDef. I have heard widely expressed opinions that the soldier was a "plant", an attention-seeker, or a sh*t disturbing Reservist who was trying to highlight the cracks in the Active-Res relationship in the US Army, in order to further the Res agenda.

If anything, I think we will see US society become more conservative than many of the people serving in its military who are actually out in the world, working side by side in foreign countries with Coalition allies, NGOs, local nationals etc and may have a much more balanced view of them than some of the folks back home.

Cheers.