Muslim policewoman refuses to shake chief's hand

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I agree it's pretty ridiculous. In Britain last month they had a case of a teacher's assistant who refused to take off a full burka while teaching children. The kids were a. intimidated and b. couldn't understand her but she launched a civil rights case to win the right to teach kids in a full burkha and she won.
What next? 

 

[Brad Sallows]

>What next?

Other people tire of trying to accommodate stupidity and counter it with their own brand of stupidity.  Adding unnecessarily to the transaction costs and friction of basic intercultural social interaction is a two-way street.

 

[geo]

The Quebec press was full of statistics and studies last week about how Quebeckers are / are not "racists".

One of the things that did come out was the, immigrants are, for the most part, against all the accomodations given to religious and ethnic groups (to which they belong).

 

[zipperhead_cop]

When you are a police officer, and the Chief wants to shake your hand as part of a ceremony, that's part of your job, it is not showing favor. As to the whole familiarity thing - I watched the MND shake a half dozen Corporal's hands at a ceremony a couple of days ago - overly familiar or cultural standard greeting?

I think he means when dealing with the general public.  And I was told pretty much the same thing.  If I give a guy a break on a traffic stop and he wants to shake my hand just to be polite and respectful, I'll usually politely decline with some lame excuse about having a cold, just in case someone happened to be watching and felt I was giving the guy unreasonable favoratism.  Illusion over substance is paramount in police.

 

[geo]

Hmmm.... Remember a number of years ago, was "tossed" onto the receiving line for a service flight coming back from Bosnia.  Was waiting to greet some members coming back from mission when Bde RSM added me to the line - near the Bde Commander.  I shook the hand of every single man that came off that aircraft.  Wonder what the reaction would have been - had I declared religious beliefs and refused to shake anyone`s hand OR look em in the eye while doing so.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I think he means when dealing with the general public.  And I was told pretty much the same thing.  If I give a guy a break on a traffic stop and he wants to shake my hand just to be polite and respectful, I'll usually politely decline with some lame excuse about having a cold, just in case someone happened to be watching and felt I was giving the guy unreasonable favoratism.  Illusion over substance is paramount in police.

Exactly what I meant

 

[portcullisguy]

I agree it's pretty ridiculous. In Britain last month they had a case of a teacher's assistant who refused to take off a full burka while teaching children. The kids were a. intimidated and b. couldn't understand her but she launched a civil rights case to win the right to teach kids in a full burkha and she won.
What next? 

I would've loved to be in that class as a kid... I was such a **** disturber when I was a lad, I could have really had fun with that one at her expense... but seriously, sometimes you really need to see someone's mouth moving to comprehend what they are actually saying, so I can understand how kids would have trouble being taught be someone wearing a burka.

I find a lot of this "it's my religion, that's why" stuff goes by the wayside when people finally decide they want to integrate a little bit and be normal.  At my work place, we've had female customs officers wearing the hijab (head scarf) and eventually decide to not wear it.  We have sikhs, who don't wear the kirpan (although no one would say boo if they did) and most of them don't grow facial hair or wear a turban, although again, no one would bat an eye if they did.  I think once the novelty of being different wears off, people eventually decide they want to be the same as every other bloke.

 

[geo]

I think the point is.... Intergration............

 

[zipperhead_cop]

On the topic of unwilling hand shakes, this photo is a classic:

"picture shows that this soldier has been thru Survival School and learned his lessons well. He's giving the sign of "coercion" with his left hand. These hand signs are taught in survival school to be used by POW's as a method of posing messages back to our intelligence services who may view the photo or video. This guy was obviously being coerced into shaking hands with Hillary Clinton. It's ironic how little she knew that he would so inform us about the photo---perhaps because she's never understood our military to begin with."

 

[JackD]

With this integration thing, about ten years ago - hell... twelve years ago, I worked in agricultural research in a western Canadian university and would visit research plots scattered amongst the farms in no-wheres-county, no-wheres-district, endless-prairie. My partner for awhile was a Muslim woman from Iran. In accordance with her beliefs, I could not actually speak with her directly. Now think about this, the prairies, if her window was open and i wanted it closed, I actually had to find some woman on the road and say "Excuse me, can you tell my partner to close her window".Try to find someone walking along the back roads of the prairies... Now you can imagine what it was like driving for something like 12-14 hours - the need to pee if you know what i mean... not to mention trying to stay awake. Don't we push accommodation too far?

 

[geo]

JackD..
couldn't you have slipped her a note?.. seriously

(also, admit it, women don't want to talk to you - any)  (JK)

 

[JackD]

I never thought of a note... On the other hand I lost that job - believe it or not - for having been in the army - a baby killer: "the students were afraid to go out in the field with you...". You gotta love places of higher education. Actually now, as an instructor in two teacher's colleges within eastern Poland ( a combined monthly salary of about a thousand dollars Canadian), most of my students are rather enchanting ladies 1/4 my age who insist they love me as I am just like a grandfather to them. Arrrrrrgh.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

With this integration thing, about ten years ago - hell... twelve years ago, I worked in agricultural research in a western Canadian university and would visit research plots scattered amongst the farms in no-wheres-county, no-wheres-district, endless-prairie. My partner for awhile was a Muslim woman from Iran. In accordance with her beliefs, I could not actually speak with her directly. Now think about this, the prairies, if her window was open and i wanted it closed, I actually had to find some woman on the road and say "Excuse me, can you tell my partner to close her window".Try to find someone walking along the back roads of the prairies... Now you can imagine what it was like driving for something like 12-14 hours - the need to pee if you know what i mean... not to mention trying to stay awake. Don't we push accommodation too far?

Well this is along the same lines as the policewoman isn't it? They have chosen to work or research outside the home which is a non-traditional thing to do, yet they cling to the stupidity of not having direct contact with men. Something has to give. You either are traditional and stay at home with your burkha on and go out in the company of your menfolk or you step out and learn how to survive in the workplace....which means talking with your co workers.

 

[1feral1]

Time to come out of the dark ages and assimilate in western society, and stop using their religion as a crutch. That will never happen will it. I ask just one question, whats wrong with being British first and foremost, a citizen rather than a just another muslim living in England.

Quite frankly I've had a dirty great big giant gutful of this mentality, but its too late to honestly do anything about it now.

All she has accomplished is widening the gap between us and them. Lets put our hands together for her.

Shakes head,

Wes

 

[Exarecr]

    She could come live in Canada where her plight would elevate her to new heights of imagined slights and multicultural hissy fits, only this time the spray of spittle from lips baying outrage would be thankfully smothered by her( hell i can,t think of the name of that cloth they put over their mouths). Take care over there .

 

[Belce]

I don't see why this is a big deal.  As part of the ceremony she would have saluted the Chief Ian Blair.  She would then accept his verbal congrats.  This says nothing about her ability or willingness to fullfill her job as a police officer.  With out doubt she completed her training which would have involved physical contact with men successfully.  I think she would make a good police officer.  Its not like she refused to shake hands when it came up, she indicated beforehand this situation.  And the most important thing is she has decided to become a police officer enforcing British laws as they are now.  Respecting her religion is important.  This is a sitaution of a Muslim that wants to be part of our society and she deserves our respect. 

Shaking hands is our cultural element to this ceremony and a minor bit at that.  Would we be having this talk if a Jew, Shikh, Hindu or aethiest refused to swear on the Bible?  The only reason this became news is because someone involved in a request to respect religion leaked it to the press.  What most likely really happened here was she indicated she couldn't shake hands because Ian Blair was not family or her husband and also not suspected criminal or job related since it was a ceremony.  The response certainly was then, okay, how can he properly congratulate you?  Reply: in this manner, response: sure. 

Religious freedom is an important right we Canadians fight for.  I am really ashamed to read the comments here so far, I hope that you all would take a moment to reconsider, you are wrong.

 

[1feral1]

Opinions are like AH's, everyones got one, including you (and me). If you feel ashamed of people's opinions on here, I am sure you can find another site to suit you.

We're NOT wrong (as you suggest), we just have an opinion, and that too is worth fighting for.


Wes

 

[Belce]

You have a right to an opinion.  Also part of that is that your opinion could be wrong.  "Its my opinion!" is not a valid defence against reason, it is a very poor argument.  The opinions expressed against someone whose faith does not allow something is something we respect. 

I did not think that my conservative thinking regarding individual rights would draw a suggestion I go elsewhere.  A person has the right to have their religion respected.  This isn't someone that grew up in Britian and can't speak English, its someone that wants to be in.

There are always wrong opinions, you just have a right to be wrong, like now.

 

[1feral1]

Are you trying to start some kind of a flame war here pal? Sure sounds like it to me.

If ya wanna have a go at me mate, PM me, but if you want to flaunt yourself on here at me in this manner, you better put on your kevlar. Its your credibiltiy on here not ours.

An "8 post wonder (Oops, EDIT: 9 posts)", and your doing well so far :

I don't give a fat rats arse about if you think I am wrong, as I said its an opinion and yours is different to mine. So what. End of story.

Suck it up and soldier on, or move on if you can't take the heat.


Wes

 

[Trooper Hale]

Like my countryman said Old boy, best put on the Kevlar if your going to run that line. Its kind of ironic/moronic to come onto a forum and tell the people who actually do the fighting for your right to opinion that they'r wrong. You could have said it a thousand other ways and each one would have been nicer and more respectful. Instead you rock on and insult these blokes. Do you realise the man your having a crack at is posting from Baghdad? That he's putting his life on the line everyday for our freedoms and your acting like your holier then all of us.
Bit bloody rough old mate.
I'm with Wes for this, i went to school were "Hallas" and "lebo pride" were all over the walls. For someone to come to a country they must work by that countries rules. I know it sounds bad, but if they want to follow the "my culture is better then yours" ideal, they can do a snappy about turn and head back to where they were born. PC be stuffed.