Naval Mess Dress

[MissHardie]

I discovered Wednesday night that I need to acquire some sort of neck accoutrement for the Mess Dinner (this) Saturday night and that no, this won't be issued to me - my question is, what is this female bow tie they speak of? And where might I find one? Formal wear stores? Can I get away with a real bow tie, or will that mean I'm crossdressing? (ha! Just the impression I want to make, especially in front of the Admiral). The one store that was recommended to me (Classy's) has closed down so now I'm a little bit panicky over the thought of being fined a drink for everyone present...

I've been to a Mess Dinner before, but before I was issued proper kit and all the females wore evening gowns.

 

[Inch]

Proper mess kit is bought, not issued. If you're wearing CF DEUs as a mess kit, the general practice for men is to wear DEUs with a white tuxedo shirt with a black bow tie. As for women, I'm not too sure but I'd suggest you try Canex, they usually have all the accoutrements for mess kit. I noticed from your profile that you're in Calgary and I don't think there's a Canex there anymore so that might not help you much.

I know it's not much info, but maybe one of the ladies of the forum can give you a little more help.

Cheers

 

[Michael OLeary]

From the Dress Regulations (A-AD-265-000/AG-001 2001-06-15):

Chapter 6 Orders of Dress

Annex E Authorized Additional Items

17. Tie, crossed tabs (F) -

a. Black crossed tabs tie.

Occasions worn.
(1) Navy: shall be worn with all mess dress except No. 2C mess shipboard.

http://regimentalrogue.com/sharefiles//navy_female__mess_dress.jpg


If you can't find one, I'd say wear a man's bowtie and only buy a drink for any male officer who can tell you who in town sells the proper crossed tab tie (or even knows what it's properly called, if you're feeling generous).

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The bow tie works fine.

http://www.windsorregt.ca/HOStJ1.jpg

 

[MissHardie]

Inch, Mr. OLeary, recceguy,

Thanks for the info! No, there's no Canex here, so I'm SOL with that idea, but knowing what this neck-thingie is called sure helps! I'm sure I can now find something suitable... or get away with a criss-cross tie that the western stores sell here, which I found yesterday but was unsure of whether it satisfies dress regs. Speaking of which, is there any way to access those off the intra-net?  Though finding a bowtie, methinks, will be much easier than scouting the city for that - what is it? - crossed tab tie. Hopefully that's navy tradition as well as army.

Thanks again!

 

[Michael OLeary]

The Dress regs comprise a 17 Mb file, your best bet is to download it at work and write it to a CD for your home PC as a reference.

Sorry, but I can't remember exactly where I found it on the DWAN.

 

[Sailing Instructor]

Does anyone think that the female mess dress looks a bit...outdated?  Personally I think the guy who designs uniforms didn't put too much thought into making an aesthetically-pleasing mess dress for females.  Just 'switch those trousers for a skirt.'

Mind you, that mentality produced an aesthetically-pleasing female service dress uniform.

 

[NavyGrunt]

Your right lets just throw away another naval tradition because it looks "outdated".   :

We should all wear hypercolor t-shirts and hammer pants because its more "modern". I dont know what they teach you as an o-cadet but Naval tradition is very important,we've already changed the uniforms too much as far as Im concerned. The technology can change but the uniforms and traditions should not.

 

[MissHardie]

Personally, I'd like to wear a uniform like that the WRENs wore - not that it's changed much over the intervening years, but there are subtle differences that make it more aesthetically pleasing.  I saw one in the naval museum and just fell in love with it.  But then I like old things.

 

[NavyGrunt]

Personally, I'd like to wear a uniform like that the WRENs wore - not that it's changed much over the intervening years, but there are subtle differences that make it more aesthetically pleasing.   I saw one in the naval museum and just fell in love with it.   But then I like old things.

That would be excellent. I as well like the older styled uniforms and trades badges.....ALOT. Its a shame how they get swept aside....

 

[Sailing Instructor]

Strangely enough, though I find the current female naval mess dress 'outdated,' I do like the WREN mess dress.

I can't say I liked giving the junior ratings no separate mess dress, though.  But that square rig sure did look sharp.

 

[tree hugger]

Wear a bow tie - you can can one from any mens suit store - just make sure it's not a "clip-on"! Next tiem you hit a CANEX look look for a white shirt that has gold buttons on it and kind of looks like a turtle neck. It's ugly but a the cool women are wearing it!

 

[Bograt]

I think the more important question is "What is the Navy doing in Calgary?" Perhaps they are working with Department of Fisheries and managing the Saskatchewan seal herd.

 

[MissHardie]

Bograt,

I admit I am curious as to what seals hear in Saskatchewan - perhaps the Great Plains Walrus we Navy-folk keep tame, to prevent the ravaging of farmland? They do have this awful habit of bellowing at the top of their lungs when we tazer them too often from the prow of our great grass hover-ships. That is, incidentally, the real reason why all us inland naval reservists each need a pair of ear defenders.

sarcasm gets me into way too much trouble as a JOUT...

 

[Sailing Instructor]

I think I'm doing a pretty good job of controlling the Winnipeg seal/walrus herd.  I haven't seen a single one around....
Dress Instructions can be found at http://142.59.159.170/pams/cf_dress_manual.pdf

Can anybody tell me why we (in the navy) can wear wellington boots in the mess, yet not on parade?  Damn contemporary uniform: I prefer 'frockers & cockers' over naval combat rig anyday.

 

[Sailing Instructor]

I've finally started to get my mess rig made. So I went to the base tailor today and found that CFSS doesn't sell material for mess rig anymore.  No problem as the stuff they want is pretty damn heavyweight & apparently I just have to get material that's similar, which got me wondering how much latitude they allow in naval mess dress.

I've heard some people on this forum say that some regiments (Patricia's I think) rather expect individuality but I don't want to get reamed out by some captain because I'm not the same as everyone.  Though I assume that no one really checks at mess dinners.

Perhaps someone can shed some light on this subject.  Specifically, I want pleats in my trousers, but the patterns show flat-front trousers.  Will anyone notice and/or care?

 

[Inch]

I'd say you're definitely going to notice pleats, the pants are meant to be properly tailored.  When you get measured by the tailor, he'll ask you which way you dress and he isn't talking about whether you put your socks on first. They leave a little extra material for the goods if you know what I mean.

Where are you? If you're in Vic or Halifax, just ask around, I know there's a tailor in Halifax that does naval mess kits and I'd assume there was one in Vic as well. If you're in Winnipeg, try Ralph's. Not sure where exactly it is but I know it's south of Portage Ave. I got my Air Force mess kit done in Kingston at Andrei's, he also does naval and army mess kits. There's tons of guys around that make them, I have no doubt that there's one in a city near you.

Cheers

 

[Sailing Instructor]

I somewhat concur.  My tailor (Giovanni, in Winnipeg) and I figured pleats would be noticed.  But they are so much more confortable than flat-front trousers. Of course if the flat-fronts are cut loosely it doesn't matter, but then I might as well travel back in time and become a Seaman and wear bell-bottomed trousers.  Actually, come to think of it, those bell-bottoms are tight in the thighs anyway.

I guess I just haven't any experience with properly tailored flat-front trousers because the worst offenders in tightness (my service dress trousers) really don't seem to take into account that the wearer dresses either way.  Ironically, I've noticed the ladies' service dress trousers have pleats.  And of course the navy does realise that pleats are more confortable because they put them on the combat trousers.

Okay, so pleats will be noticed but the important question is: will anyone care (besides the bureaucrats who come up with the dress specifications)?

 

[Inch]

Personally I think pleats would look dumb with a waist coat, they're supposed to be sleek looking, not like you're ready to head out for a round of golf. You also don't wear a belt with mess kit, I believe you're supposed to wear suspenders so that helps a little with the comfort.  The reason women's service dress has pleats is obviously because they're anatomically different than men, I can't say for their mess kit, most women that I've seen in mess kit tend to wear the skirt. I don't mind how my mess kit fits at all, besides, 99% of the times that you wear it you'll be drunk!

Cheers

 

[Sailing Instructor]

I guess I'm just stuck in a 1930s ideal of men's fashion where high English-back trousers with braces automatically require a deep forward pleat!  ;D And because of that I don't think that trousers need to be pencil-thin to be sleek; rather, the slight baginess is stylish--I've seen many evening suits with pleated trousers & they make me want wish white tie was coming back. 

But don't worry, I haven't lost all faith in the flat-front trousers, and if I do I'll just have to join a highland regiment and enjoy the freedom of a kilt!