Naval Officers Once Again to Wear the Executive Curl

[jollyjacktar]

How so? Why are people so quick to try and find negatives? The intent of the SSI is to formally recognize time spent at sea and to recognize the hard work of the sailors and officers who go to sea.

Just getting your sea pay audit correct alone is headache enough.  This is more like picking fly shit out of pepper.  As previously mentioned (read the thread) they will have to figure out which days were sea days for each person.  I don't envy the task .

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

First, let me say I for one am not married to the "Royal" desig - But "Canadian Navy" would rally the old Royal bunch as well as the more modern and "republican" younger generation behind something we can all ...well, get behind!

As for the SSi, the difficulty in implementation will be self induced if we insist on the goddamned centralized control that seems to pervade any "administrative" task. Otherwise, it could happen fairly easily.

To start with you pay a visit to a little appreciated Directorate in Ottawa: DHistory.  Every year, this Directorate receives from each ship the documents that junior O's and Mars IV's, under the whip of the Nav Os, have come to hate: The Ship's Log. This Directorate could easily, from these documents, generate an approved calendar of days each ship in the navy was considered "at sea" for the last 30 years. I am sure the professional historians that are custodians there would love the task, which would be right up their alley.

Then, each unit individually, using the approved calendar and the personnel files showing postings, would review each seaman's file and "grant" her the days at sea that correspond to her posting periods to any ship on the calendar. This grant could be in the form of a memo signed by the CO put in the pers file. To avoid pointless discussion, we would ignore for the original implementation, details such as leave period or medical absences, etc., as well as ignore temporary  transfers for a few days here and there. The figures generated may not be perfect, but they would be generally correct and rapid implementation would be the benefit derived from waxing over the details.

For the future, any individual on a ship would have his days at sea recorded in his pers file, and for greater certainty, indicated in his PER. With most units having between 2-3 hundred individuals, such a review could probably be carried out  within about a year.

Here is a small point to ponder: The SSI is not a trade designator, special qualification badge, medal or ribbon. It is an indicator of sea time, akin to the old years of service badges. Most navies in the world have some form of service badges, stripes, pins, etc. to recognize and affirm such time in the sea service for their seaman - however, I am not aware of any navy, and I am certain no "British" style navy, that has such a "badge" system for the officers. Might it not sound a little goofy for officers to explain what that thing is on our uniforms when we meet our colleagues of other nations?   

 

[medicineman]

How so? Why are people so quick to try and find negatives? The intent of the SSI is to formally recognize time spent at sea and to recognize the hard work of the sailors and officers who go to sea.

Then Sir, I'd suggest that you help the unit and Base clerks sort through how many actual sea days each person in CF has under their boots, because they're going to need all the help they can get...they aren't deriding the badge itself, just the crap and abuse everyone has to go through to get them issued on time, especially when there aren't enough clerks to do the work that REALLY needs to be done on a day to day basis (yes, my wife is RMS and on a ship).  :2c:

MM

 

[wayjosh]

Then Sir, I'd suggest that you help the unit and Base clerks sort through how many actual sea days each person in CF has under their boots, because they're going to need all the help they can get...they aren't deriding the badge itself, just the crap and abuse everyone has to go through to get them issued on time, especially when there aren't enough clerks to do the work that REALLY needs to be done on a day to day basis (yes, my wife is RMS and on a ship).  :2c:

MM

From the beginning, it was clearly understood that there may be some challenges to getting this done. However, the benefits of creating a formal recognition for all those that go to sea far outweighed these challenges. Sea day counts are already well underway. 

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Then Sir, I'd suggest that you help the unit and Base clerks

I never suggested that the clerks should be saddled with this. It is a professional recognition issue - not an administrative one, so it seems to me it for D.O's and D.P.O's to deal with doing this.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Here is an old fashioned idea. You sign onto a ship, they make a note in you sea book, when you sign off the Officer notes the date and the number of days at sea. It's not rocket science and that pretty much what every merchant service does. It's also easy to make it electronic.

 

[Michael OLeary]

It's not rocket science and ..... It's also easy to make it electronic.

This is DND.  In 20 years of networking computers we haven't even managed to create a user friendly e-mail system.

 

[Occam]

Here is an old fashioned idea. You sign onto a ship, they make a note in you sea book, when you sign off the Officer notes the date and the number of days at sea. It's not rocket science and that pretty much what every merchant service does. It's also easy to make it electronic.

That's great for tracking sea days from this point onward; unfortunately, it does nothing for the thousands of people who served in the past, who will have to have their sea days calculated manually.

 

[CountDC]

Sea day counts are already well underway.

They are?  When did we start that?? Wait - D Mar Pers are the ones doing it and they certainly haven't had enough time to have it "well underway".

 

[wayjosh]

They are?  When did we start that?? Wait - D Mar Pers are the ones doing it and they certainly haven't had enough time to have it "well underway".

What do you base your assumption on?

 

[Occam]

From the beginning, it was clearly understood that there may be some challenges to getting this done. However, the benefits of creating a formal recognition for all those that go to sea far outweighed these challenges. Sea day counts are already well underway.

Define "well underway".  As someone whose Naval service was in the '80s and '90s, and isn't even wearing that colour of uniform anymore, can I expect to see the SSI anytime soon?  (Once they figure out which deployments I took leave on, joined in the middle of, or departed early, that is...) 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That's great for tracking sea days from this point onward; unfortunately, it does nothing for the thousands of people who served in the past, who will have to have their sea days calculated manually.

You might just have to say that for historical purposes, indicate which ships you have served on and your length of service. then they will use a formula to determine time at sea. It won't be perfect, but that life. In fact that's how Transport Canada dealt with the whole Hovercraft seatime issue at one point.

Micheal you have a point, lets stick to pens and books, no doubt some enterprising soul will come up with a non-offical excel based system.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Micheal you have a point, lets stick to pens and books, no doubt some enterprising soul will come up with a non-offical excel based system.

The problem won't be in creating a calculating spreadsheet or web-app, I have no doubt that any number of sailors have the necessary skills, the problem will be in getting a common solution approved and effectively distributed past the digital dinosaurs trying to protect us from any creative use of the DWAN.

 

[CountDC]

I never suggested that the clerks should be saddled with this. It is a professional recognition issue - not an administrative one, so it seems to me it for D.O's and D.P.O's to deal with doing this.

Thank you - that would be nice.  Now for reality - it will involve clerks like everything else they come up with. Clerks hold the pers files so even if someone else was to do the actual looking through the files (which would be amazing for once) the clerk still has to issue the files,  maintain a bf for return and process the file back when it is finally returned.  Odds are more likely that the clerks will have to go through the files and find the information on the members just like when the sea pay audits were done.  Ignoring the loaners is not an option either as the members will want all their time counted and guess what - that information may not be on the pers file as sometimes the Navy loans people without letting the clerks know. Sometimes it is the Div Notes that lets us know the member was sent somewheres. Sometimes it is the clerk that has made life difficult for the rest of us as they didn't publish the att-post into HRMS and didn't PA the msg to the pers file.

This will not be any more fun than the sea pay audits.  Imagine - Oscar has 3 years credit towards sea pay but only 7 months credit towards this and doesn't undertand how that is possible ( and yes it is possible).  Oscar does not feel it is right so a ROG is filed.  More work for clerks and a few officers.

Want to keep it simple?  Use the Sea Pay numbers that have already been audited to death and redressed up the yingyang.

Wait - what am I thinking.  Keep the system!  At least I don't have to worry about getting one to take care of.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Know what CountDC, you may be close to a dog that will hunt!

Have a Tiger team pull out one hundred  pers files, review them and come, for each one, to an agreed figure for days at sea. Then, add the days at sea all up and, add their corresponding  sea pay all up: make an average percentage figure of the days at sea to days of sea pay and order that it be applied to everyone in the fleet to derive their individual days at sea starting figure , just add new days from now on. Make it as an administrative order and then no one can redress the application of the average figure, as it will be applied equally to all.

P.s.: Has the Navy changed so much since I retired 12 yrs ago? Are you saying D.O.'s do not read through the pers files of their charges? If so, it is sad.  I know that was always the second thing I did every time I got assigned a new division, right after meeting my D.P.O.

 

[medicineman]

I never suggested that the clerks should be saddled with this. It is a professional recognition issue - not an administrative one, so it seems to me it for D.O's and D.P.O's to deal with doing this.

Driver, sorry that came out when/where it did, but it was actually directed at wayjosh.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

MM

 

[wayjosh]

CountDC

I think most everyone would agree that a clerk’s job is very busy. However, are you saying that if clerks do have to get involved in some way that recognition of our people is not worth the extra effort?

Sea Duty Allowance may have been an option but I personally don’t think it is reflective of how much time someone has at sea.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Sea Duty Allowance may have been an option but I personally don’t think it is reflective of how much time someone has at sea.

Agreed.  I think that the whole point of the SSI is to indicate time 'at sea' and not posted to a sea going unit yet managing to sail very little.  If the SSI was awarded based on sea pay increments then it would have very little intrinsic value (to me anyways). 

I also agree that it will be very difficult to calculate past sea time but should be much easier to do on a going-forward basis.  A sheet in the UER signed off by the DCPO after coming alongside should suffice.  I think that the effort to calculate past entitlements as closely as possible will be worth the effort but that's just one sailor's opinion.

 

[Sailorwest]

A buddy of mine had an interesting question last night about this. If you sail at 0800 Monday and come alongside at 0730 on Wednesday, do you get two days, three days or 5.94 days toward the SSI? The definition of a sea day is 8 hrs spent at sea. Is that entire 47.5 hrs spent at sea all counted or do you only get to count one 8 hour period per calander day? Someone is going to hate this idea for sure.  BTW, reservists don't have UER's.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

BTW, reservists don't have UER's.

UER = Unit Employment Record


In the Army world you do, it lists what exercises/positions/taskings/callouts/tours you have done.....I would think the Navy world you would too....