Navy could shift to Pacific

[Baz]

US Global Hawke is all flown out of Beale, Predator and Reaper out of Creech.  I think the USN wanted separate for the Atlantic and Pacific Fleets, therefore Whidbey and Jax, but there doesn't seem to be the money.

The USAF has made pushes to try to include Triton in its Global ISR DCGS (Distributed Common Ground Station), which does the Processing Exploitation and Dissemination (PED) for Global Hawke, U2, Predator, etc, but the USN has pushed back, as the USAF isn't very good at Maritime Common Operational and Tactical Picture (COTP).

 

[Underway]

The thing is I don't think Canada strategically has as many interests or security concerns in the Pacific as we do in the Americas.  This may change but currently and quietly the Gov't has been focusing on the Americas and Caribbean in much of its foreign policy issues.  The operations hub in Jamaica and the sudden interest in OP CARIB over the last 5 years demonstrate this to a certain extent.  Our main security concerns actually come from the south vice the flashy pacific problems.  As well the Arab Spring has demonstrated Africa and the Med may be more of an issue going forward.  This strategic reality, politics in Halifax and yes space concerns in Esquimalt will ensure that the balance will probably be Atlantic heavy for the foreseeable future.

We will see with  the addition of the AOPS the Gov't may be able to move ships around to achieve a more focused fleet mix based on missions, effects and strategic realities without worrying about losing jobs issues in Nova Scotia.  Adding 6 AOPS to the east coast would free up a frigate to move west where frankly the AOPS would not be as useful.  Also leaving 2-3 subs out west and sending only one back east might be a move as well (as I have my doubts that Chicoutimi will ever sail again unless as a training platform)

Fleet mix might look like this

Esquimalt:
1 DDH
6 FFH
6 MCDV
3 SSK
2 AOPS (only if we exercise the option for 8 otherwise 0)
1 AOR

Halifax:

2 DDH
6 FFH
6 MCDV
1 SSK
6 AOPS (potential to work well in the Caribbean due to their ability to embark 40 extra pers and their planned ability to carry various boats, equipment and helo's - more potential than the MCDV's)
2 AOR  (if we exercise the option for 3 otherwise only 1 here)

With batch 1 of the CSC then you have 2 DDH on each coast.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The RCN's boss's explanation about why Canada's ships are where they are (highlights mine):

“The Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) recognizes the growing importance of the Asia-Pacific region for Canada and is committed to building and enhancing relations with key defence and security allies in this part of the world.  In fact, the size and capabilities of the RCN’s Pacific fleet have been increased considerably since the 1990s in response to the changes occurring in the Pacific region.

The RCN takes an active role in building strong and lasting relationships with coalition partners by participating in multinational exercises, operations and good-will deployments in the Pacific region, such as the Rim of the Pacific (RIMPAC) exercise and WESTPLOY. These activities improve our ability to work together in response to various operational scenarios – from the provision of humanitarian aid and disaster relief to full-combat operations.

There are no plans to redistribute RCN ships from the Atlantic fleet to the Pacific fleet as the current distribution meets our strategic and operational requirements. As seen in recent deployments overseas, our ability to deploy our ships abroad when and where needed on behalf of the Government of Canada is not restricted by where our ships are based.

In the last decade, the Canadian Government has repeatedly deployed the Canadian Armed Forces to the Middle East and to the Caribbean and these regions will remain the most likely areas of operations for the CAF for years to come. We can deploy RCN assets from either coast to any maritime area of operations in the world.  In fact, Halifax and Esquimalt-based ships have deployed routinely over this period to these areas of interest on a regular basis. We expect to employ the same flexibility should the demands of engagement in the Pacific increase in the future.

Any future decision regarding the regional placement or redistribution of RCN ships will be based on strategic and operational considerations as well as the availability of logistical and maintenance support.”

(signed) Vice Admiral Mark Norman
Commander Royal Canadian Navy

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Deploying into the Pacific is true blue water stuff, requiring larger ships and robust support vessels. Plus any potential adversaries outside of the Malacca straits will be fairly substantial in their own right. Deploying to the Caribbean is likely far easier with the state of our current fleet and likely involves police or humanitarian roles. 

 

[Underway]

Its a lot more green water than you might think especially in the South China Sea, and Straits.  Anything we would do would integrate in a US Carrier Task Group or some other alliance fleet.  Canada is already working on options for a military support hub in the area.  Singapore would probably be ideal for us.  Right in the mix geographically, commonwealth nation, fairly high tech, good lanes of resupply, they take security seriously....  Drop a frigate there when needed, add MPA or more ships as required.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The problem is that there lots of blue between us and the green! 

Canada should avoid getting dragged into the green water stuff, let the locals deal with that, our job would likely be escort/ASW/AD of task forces and merchant shipping.

 

[daftandbarmy]

haha I think I woul re-muster to Navy just for this  >

Of course, to align with our new national energy strategy, we should base them in Prince Rupert. It would save on the skin cancer claims too  ;D

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Since someone took offense to my previous post, yes I know the Atlantic is a blue water ocean, my reference is to the ships discussed in this thread. The AOPS and MCDV can easily operate down along the East coast into the Caribbean, far easier than crossing the Pacific.

Underway, my wife’s Uncle is a Chief Mate of a Malaysian Coast Guard buoy tender operating in the Malacca straits out of Port Klang. Interesting stories about pirates and such from him. 

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Colin, I'm with you on the MCDVs crossing the Pacific, but it would be no trouble for the AOPS: The damn things are bigger than the IRO's or HAL's, not to mention bigger than the contemplated CSC's and with greater unrefuelled range than any of these ships. Moreover, they are supposed to be designed to operate in  the Grand-Banks in winter so, no problem with bad weather either.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Unless they screw up the C of G and they have to fill the fuel tanks full of concrete....but of course that would never ever happen....(cough, gag, ack)

 

[Ostrozac]

Colin, I'm with you on the MCDVs crossing the Pacific, but it would be no trouble for the AOPS: The damn things are bigger than the IRO's or HAL's, not to mention bigger than the contemplated CSC's and with greater unrefuelled range than any of these ships. Moreover, they are supposed to be designed to operate in  the Grand-Banks in winter so, no problem with bad weather either.

That's a fantastic observation. I wonder what it means for the cost of operation, and what tasks they will be assigned. The navy is used to operating with high-cost 5000-ton frigates and low-cost 1000-ton MCDV. The 6000-ton AOPS will certainly not be cheap to operate.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Actually, there are two big ongoing costs to consider: Fuel and crewing.

The AOPS will have crew requirements only very slightly higher than MCDV's and clearly below frigs/destroyers. So big saving.

For fuel: bigger than frigs/destroyer, but with diesel electric propulsion that will achieve only marginally more (+1 Knot only) speed than the MCDV's and no need for gas-guzzling GT engines for high speeds of the frigs/destroyers. So probably more expansive than MCDV's but cheaper that the FFH/DDH.

 

[MarkOttawa]

To repeat a post elsewhere:

Does one want to send a ship to Asian waters with "a maximum speed of at least 17 knots" if any possible serious action is envisaged?
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/business-equipment/arctic-offshore-patrol-ships.page

A ship of this type?

Quote

    ...
    AOPS will not be a complex combatant. It will be armed and equipped for a constabulary role in support of other government departments...
    http://vanguardcanada.com/preparing-for-a-unique-maritime-theatre/


What OGDs to support in Asiatic waters?  And this sort of gun?

Quote

    For the AOPS, the navy is considering a 25mm gun forward says the Admiral, “but they are constabulary vessels not a combatant. They will be built to commercial standards and aimed at providing Canada with an arctic surveillance offshore sovereignty capability and also to be there for search and rescue, to enable other lead departments in their maritime mandates, whether it is RCMP, Coast Guard, Fisheries and Oceans, or CBSA.”..
    http://www.frontline-canada.com/Defence/index_archives.php?page=1784

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/111619/post-1252902.html#msg1252902

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It would certain give the commanders an interesting mix to work with. In a perfect world you could have 3 classes of ships with as many sub systems the same as possible, so portions of the crews could rotate to the required ship as required and be ready to operate in short order. Now back to the real world....

In light of Marks post, the AOPS appears to be a useful ship to respond to crisis's like New Guinea, Haiti, Aceh, Japan along with our spanking new support ships.

 

[Underway]

@OGBD

I don't know if the AOPs will actually be larger than the frigates but they are definitely in the same or bigger tonnage category (~5800 tonnes).  All that extra hull reinforcement for smashing through ice up to 1.2m thick, not sure on their dimensions anymore.  AOPS are probably going to be in the 100m LOA range and the frigates IIRC are in the 135m LOA area.  I agree that their speed will be marginally better than MCDV's - top speed 17 vice 15 and a cruise of 14 vice 8-12 depending on DA's.

As for sending them to the south pacific that seems more like a proper heavies job.  However a modern 25mm gun and 2-4 x.50 cal along with a boarding party and their boat is enough to handle pirates IMHO. 

 

[chrisf]

Depends on the cooling system... if the AOPS were designed for Canadian/arctic waters, they may not be able to handle the tropical heat... not much point in being there "operationally" if you're stuck doing 5 knots.