Navy to potentially create training ships on great lakes

[Swampbuggy]

I’m not sure what Bay class you are referring to. The current CCG bay class has 18 vessels in service with 2 more coming. Built by Hike Metal & Wheatley Chantier.

Vessel - CCG Fleet

CCG Fleet

inter-j02.dfo-mpo.gc.ca

That’s the one I was referring to. It is replacing the ARUN class and is about 15’ longer than the CAPE class.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I’m not sure what Bay class you are referring to. The current CCG bay class has 18 vessels in service with 2 more coming. Built by Hike Metal & Wheatley Chantier.

Vessel - CCG Fleet

CCG Fleet

inter-j02.dfo-mpo.gc.ca

What I am saying is the Bay Class is more of niche vessel, which is designed around the principle of being self-righting. That drives all the design requirements. The vessels I showed in the picture is a Point Class 400. This sort of vessel is more optimized for patrolling and could spend a few days at sea. They also towed smaller vessels quite well.

 

[Navy_Pete]

The idea of a dedicated boarding party like NTOG spawned out of RCN experiences in Op Apollo and Sharp Guard.

The problem is our slow moving machinery established it when heavy boarding operation deployments had gone away.

Perhaps it will come back some day. But at this point I wonder if they are worth that squeeze anymore.

I think the concept was fine; I think the actual usage as well as mission drift is the issue. They never get used for anything that basic boarding party couldn't do, and they keep trying to create things they can do (but don't get used for either), vice someone in CJOC or similar saying to the RCN 'we need a team that can do x', getting a team capable of that, and deploying it to do that.

Especially with the paucity of bunks on the CPFs, which gets far worse on RCD, we absolutely cannot afford to have extra people that aren't actively contributing to the mission as a 'just in case' that aren't part of the actual crew. With boarding party, at least they are only part time, but otherwise doing useful work. Having NTOG folks on standby just isn't feasible when we aren't building ships with a lot of extra bunks for additional capability teams, and my experience was they were bored out of their skull at sea and just started helping turn wrenches or whatever their trade was when they weren't actively doing navy ninja training. You can only sleep, eat and exercise so many hours of the day away when you have less than 500' of travel for a few weeks at a time.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I get it. My point (roundabout) was that a lot of people put the power into the hands of the Regimental Senates and rich locals when really the power is in the fact that there is no infrastructure budget and no money for fixing up facilities at all. The James St. Armouries was almost abondoned about 10 years ago with the units going to move to the recently closed Asylum (not joking...). But that as well was to expensive.

Most of the armouries are actually getting significant upgrades and overhauls, so hopefully they give the James St and the Links and Winks one similar treatment. The problem now is more lack of people to do projects, as well as prioritizing it based on actual condition and not who has the most influence (or overlooking those without a fairy godfather).

The amount of money on the books for infra is kind of mindblowing, with multiple programmes in the 10 figure range, so if even a fraction of this rolls out most bases across the CAF will get either a total redo or major upgrades, including all the outstations. Just the program to replace all the ammo depots and expand them is pretty wild.

 

[Underway]

Most of the armouries are actually getting significant upgrades and overhauls, so hopefully they give the James St and the Links and Winks one similar treatment. The problem now is more lack of people to do projects, as well as prioritizing it based on actual condition and not who has the most influence (or overlooking those without a fairy godfather).

The amount of money on the books for infra is kind of mindblowing, with multiple programmes in the 10 figure range, so if even a fraction of this rolls out most bases across the CAF will get either a total redo or major upgrades, including all the outstations. Just the program to replace all the ammo depots and expand them is pretty wild.

This is amazing to hear. Especially the ammo depot information.

 

[Navy_Pete]

This is amazing to hear. Especially the ammo depot information.

That one should be really interesting and hoping I get to work on it a bit, the ammo folks at DAER do the coolest testing by far.

Also replacing most firehalls, redoing most hangars, training facilities, huge navy infra (including sub bases, as well as a lot of of the pre-cold war buildings, some more jetties etc), lots of accomodations, and a lot of other projects, mega-projects and programmes.

Just getting rid of AFFF in fitted systems in buildings is an 8 figure program at 40 odd buildings, so lot going on.

 

[Kirkhill]

Don't small boat skills and boarding parties kind of go hand in glove?

People transferring to a vessel from ship or shore are more likely to transfer by small boat than helicopter or jackstay.

Teaching people how to drive small boats in big waters and safely board another vessel would seem to be a handy skill set. One that could be employed in peace or war , inshore and offshore. And one that, to my mind looks compatible with Reserve capabilities and potential local employment.

I would punt for the CB90H as a boat compatible with bluewater ops, inshore training and Reserve and continental defence needs.

It is sheltered. It is fast. It operates in deep and shallow waters. It has a useful range. It can be hoisted inboard in davits. It carries passengers. It can land passengers ashore dryshod. It can mount small calibre weapons and light RWS systems with long range EO/IR systems.

And they can move troops to the shore.

CB-90 for Canada – Canadian Naval Review

By Peter Sanderson, Capt (Ret’d) Canadian Army, Reserve, 31 October 2022 The CB-90, a class of fast military assault craft, has been a YouTube star for 30 years but once you get past the hype, you will find a boat that can address a lot of Canada’s littoral shortcomings.

www.navalreview.ca

CB90-class fast assault craft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Edit: and it would make a useful SAR adjunct.

And it is an effective riverine craft allowing training opportunities to inland Reserve Divisions.

 

[Furniture]

Teaching people how to drive small boats in big waters and safely board another vessel would seem to be a handy skill set. One that could be employed in peace or war , inshore and offshore. And one that, to my mind looks compatible with Reserve capabilities and potential local employment.

The RCN agrees, that's why boatswains do those things... I believe most/all NRDs already have RHIBS for exactly that sort of training.

The CB90 would be an entirely different beast, and as it stands, lacks a role in the CAF. The CA doesn't have the time/resources for amphibious tasks, so the RCN isn't tasked with supporting them in that way.

If we just want a patrol boat, SAAB themselves make boats that make more sense than the CB90, and there are likely Canadian companies that have similarly suitable patrol boat options.

 

[Underway]

Don't small boat skills and boarding parties kind of go hand in glove?

People transferring to a vessel from ship or shore are more likely to transfer by small boat than helicopter or jackstay.

Teaching people how to drive small boats in big waters and safely board another vessel would seem to be a handy skill set. One that could be employed in peace or war , inshore and offshore. And one that, to my mind looks compatible with Reserve capabilities and potential local employment.

I would punt for the CB90H as a boat compatible with bluewater ops, inshore training and Reserve and continental defence needs.

It is sheltered. It is fast. It operates in deep and shallow waters. It has a useful range. It can be hoisted inboard in davits. It carries passengers. It can land passengers ashore dryshod. It can mount small calibre weapons and light RWS systems with long range EO/IR systems.

And they can move troops to the shore.

CB-90 for Canada – Canadian Naval Review

By Peter Sanderson, Capt (Ret’d) Canadian Army, Reserve, 31 October 2022 The CB-90, a class of fast military assault craft, has been a YouTube star for 30 years but once you get past the hype, you will find a boat that can address a lot of Canada’s littoral shortcomings.

www.navalreview.ca

CB90-class fast assault craft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Edit: and it would make a useful SAR adjunct.

And it is an effective riverine craft allowing training opportunities to inland Reserve Divisions.

Boat handling is the enabling skill for boardings. But boardings themselves are their own skill set. Its not the same as a boat transfer.

 

[Kirkhill]

Boat handling is the enabling skill for boardings. But boardings themselves are their own skill set. Its not the same as a boat transfer.

But surely a successful transfer is a prerequisite for a boarding?

And @Furniture wrt the RCN not doing amphibious landings (ship to shore) wouldn't a Kinston berthed patrol boat be moving shore to ship and ship to shore?

How about those same crews with those same boats being deployed on the JSS, AOPS. CDC and RCDs on the high seas on anti-piracy missions - for example? Don't worry about muddy boots mucking up your decks so you have to break out the holystones.

And as to the CB90 being a step up from the RHIB, I thought the baseline of this discussion was putting a better training vessel into the hands of the Reserves in places civilians can see them.

Pootling around in a dinghy or roaring by in a speed boat..... which is the better camera op? And which is the better overnight training platform?