Ref Apollo 2002. The C7 ND was, I think, a guy who the Yanks wanted to clear his C7 before entering their PX (WHY? He going to rob the PX and run down 10,500 feet of runway flapping his arms?) and he was so frazzled by the idiocy of it all that he put a bullet into the gravel that fragged a US girl's leg. The best camp ND was a Mk 19 (Boom Boom WHUMP WHUMP).
Tom
Tom
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There was a Mk19 ND up at Phoenix as well - three rounds warming into the Hesco... ;D
Keep in mind we had the C9 ND into KevinS's foot (weapon N/S) and a 12ga. Slug into the CP when I was the CP Duty NCO :-[ in the CP (not me - but lets just say it did not go over well anyway)
We also have had a M/Cpl discharge (well he was a Cpl then - promoted a month later :
) his weapon during a sfatey breifing and again afterwards. We had a then Cpl (now M/Cpl) have a Sim ND that our OC was MUCH closer to than he would have appreciated ;D)
Troops (and the Leadership) are not getting enough time on weapons to be competant - period end of story.
Keep in mind we had the C9 ND into KevinS's foot (weapon N/S) and a 12ga. Slug into the CP when I was the CP Duty NCO :-[ in the CP (not me - but lets just say it did not go over well anyway)
We also have had a M/Cpl discharge (well he was a Cpl then - promoted a month later :
) his weapon during a sfatey breifing and again afterwards. We had a then Cpl (now M/Cpl) have a Sim ND that our OC was MUCH closer to than he would have appreciated ;D)Troops (and the Leadership) are not getting enough time on weapons to be competant - period end of story.
Intresting post actually kind of funny doesn't surprise me about the NSE pers.
But if you want to go further back in time, when I was on my first tour of Cyprus 1984 we would be in our shacks with C1's and no magazines. Another time I was a gate guard with my nice white holster, of course there was no pistol in the holster as we were not allowed to carry them, so if some crazy Cypriot wanted to run the gate I would just step out of the way.
The pistol magazines were always loaded tour after tour which meant the springs were useless after the first 2 rounds the rest would just fall out.
Once the Turks moved their line forward and as part of the Immediate Reaction force we were called out. The Turks were locked and loaded with troops in front of us and above us in windows as we stood there with our C1's 4 loaded magazines and bandoliers, BUT no magazines on our rifles.
Same thing again on my 2nd tour in 1990
Can't have a ND with no bullets.
Of course on the tour to Croatia 1993 everything changed
But if you want to go further back in time, when I was on my first tour of Cyprus 1984 we would be in our shacks with C1's and no magazines. Another time I was a gate guard with my nice white holster, of course there was no pistol in the holster as we were not allowed to carry them, so if some crazy Cypriot wanted to run the gate I would just step out of the way.
The pistol magazines were always loaded tour after tour which meant the springs were useless after the first 2 rounds the rest would just fall out.
Once the Turks moved their line forward and as part of the Immediate Reaction force we were called out. The Turks were locked and loaded with troops in front of us and above us in windows as we stood there with our C1's 4 loaded magazines and bandoliers, BUT no magazines on our rifles.
Same thing again on my 2nd tour in 1990
Can't have a ND with no bullets.
Of course on the tour to Croatia 1993 everything changed
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There were alot more NDs on the 02 tour than are mentioned here, but from my perpective, most of them seemed to be centered around CS 0, although we had a few.
Ironically, it was the troops in the coys who had to do TOETs on every wpn in the inventory after every officer blasted a 9mm round into the sandbags.
The guy at the AFES who had the ND was with a pistol as well, I was standing right there - unless there were two....
The disabling of wpns happens here as well, one of our NCOs caught one of our coy medics with gun tape over the top of his mag, even though it was loaded with blanks because "I never use it anyway - so why risk it?"
I've heard that the CO of one of the major US Army basic trg depots in the states demands that his troops carry loaded (with blanks) weapons at all times to build familiarity with the weapon. As does the IDF in trg. Anyone else?
Ironically, it was the troops in the coys who had to do TOETs on every wpn in the inventory after every officer blasted a 9mm round into the sandbags.
The guy at the AFES who had the ND was with a pistol as well, I was standing right there - unless there were two....
The disabling of wpns happens here as well, one of our NCOs caught one of our coy medics with gun tape over the top of his mag, even though it was loaded with blanks because "I never use it anyway - so why risk it?"
I've heard that the CO of one of the major US Army basic trg depots in the states demands that his troops carry loaded (with blanks) weapons at all times to build familiarity with the weapon. As does the IDF in trg. Anyone else?
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Go I remember doing a ton of TOET's with the troops, it seemed like it was everyday. So yes there were alot more ND's then what people are stating. As far as the magazine issue goes, time permitting, the magazines should be emptied of all rounds EVERYDAY, and reloaded so as to ease the pressure on the spring.
In Cyprus mags were kept loaded from tour to tour, and heaven help us if we ever actually had to be involved in any shooting. I remember both weapons and mags being locked up when not on duty!
In Cyprus mags were kept loaded from tour to tour, and heaven help us if we ever actually had to be involved in any shooting. I remember both weapons and mags being locked up when not on duty!
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Weird, I had this dream last night that I was doing ND's left right and centre. One went through the roof, one went into the wall and broke the tiles, and on this other one a black guy came up to me out of the washroom and started yelling at me that I could have killed him.
:blotto: :blotto: :blotto:
:blotto: :blotto: :blotto:
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I'm not doubting your experience, but I think it is generally accepted that emptying magazines periodically does nothing but harm to the magazine springs, since metal fatigue in the springs is caused by the repeated cycling between the coiled and uncoiled states, and not from being held in place by rounds for extended periods of time..
Of course, emptying and inspecting magazines everyday is still good advice, simply to prevent dirt and dust from accumulating the in magazines, and to ensure that both magazines and ammunition have not been damaged or rendered inoperable by the buildup of debris
I suppose I should share a crazy weapon story too. I went through a foreign weapons range run jointly by Canadian and allied armies, using soley captured weapons and ammunition. It was great fun, until the RSOs noted with suprise that the last 3 rounds of many magazines were filled with tracer ???. It was at this point I realized to my terror that we had gone through two dozen magazines of 7.62x39mm which had not been unloaded, much less inspected, since their capture
. After that point, all the original loaded magazines had been expended without incident, and the range carried on with clipped and boxed ammunition. In retrospect, I am rather thankful to have escaped that range without serious injury or death. - Reaction score
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GO!!! said:It's a sign - you should'nt join the army or put any more irrelevant posts in this forum oooooooooooooooo! :
Thats sound advice, I think I will take it. As we speak I am calling my RO and telling him I will not be there on BMQ.
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No problem Infanteer, I did it all for you buddy
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KevinB said:
I disagree in part, weapons handling (C7) is drilled into troops in Basic and in Battle School, there should be no problems with operating the weapon after that. Any ND after that is merely a soldier not thinking about what they're doing(or a possible weapon malfunction). It's really an easy task to carry out and for the most part it seems complacency gets the best of a lot of people.
Pistol on the other hand seems to be a much bigger problem. We had a guy here recently who I believe was a Master Seaman, who went to clear his pistol by the gate after searching and the round went over a shitter truck nearly hitting 2 people standing there. When they questioned him on it he replied that he had not been trained on the weapon and thus should not be charged. So in turn, everyone carrying a pistol in the camp had to do a pistol pwt before they could use their pistol again. So I agree with troops not having enough chance for training with other weapons such as pistol, but definetely not C7, it's something that should never be forgotten.
As for clearing bays, I think it's a good rule to follow for everyone. I'd rather walk around camp without a mag on knowing that everyone else in the camp doesn't have one on either, less Force Protection. In all honesty is think ND's would be drastically higher in that scenario.
But all in all, more weapons handling with ALL weapons being issued is key.
Gunner
Army.ca Veteran
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I hope there is more to this than he/she simply wasn't trained on the weapon... Someone gave him/her a pistol and he/she took it as their personal weapon...if they didn't know how to use it, don't you say something? What happens if the consequences were much worse (ie someone was wounded or killed). Not being trained on a weapon is not a "get out of jail free card."
Sheesh... :
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I can't say whether or not the individual was charged or not because I don't know. In my opinion, he's a gutless lowlife for not being able to accept his own stupid actions and to fall on his sword like a man and take the heat. Maybe he goes by a different set of leadership principles, i'm not entirely sure.
We also had a guy with an ND in his bunkspace that went out the tent and through a green rocket. Again, luckily no one hurt. Not sure what became of him either.
We also had a guy with an ND in his bunkspace that went out the tent and through a green rocket. Again, luckily no one hurt. Not sure what became of him either.
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Gunner, I suspect it happens more often then people like to admit. Before I left for my little Bihac TAV last year they made damn sure I did a PWT level 3 with my C7. What did I carry in Bosnia? A 9mm.
I'm OK with a pistol, I've never had an ND and had some excellent instructors, but I certainly didn't have to put a round down range before they handed it to me. My predecessor had actually had to ask for an assist on cleaning our pistol (ours, he turned it in, I checked it out). To be honest, I was far more worried about pistol retention in the shopping district then my drills, but still...you arm a person, you'd best make sure they know how to use the kit.
There was a fem brit officer who occasionally dropped by our little LOT house, one afternoon she left her pistol unattended in the stand-easy, the boys thought they'd teach her a little something by leaving it in pieces for her. She also had to ask for an assist.
Next time she showed up with an SA80. The RMP Maj took it away from her :crybaby:
DF
I'm OK with a pistol, I've never had an ND and had some excellent instructors, but I certainly didn't have to put a round down range before they handed it to me. My predecessor had actually had to ask for an assist on cleaning our pistol (ours, he turned it in, I checked it out). To be honest, I was far more worried about pistol retention in the shopping district then my drills, but still...you arm a person, you'd best make sure they know how to use the kit.
There was a fem brit officer who occasionally dropped by our little LOT house, one afternoon she left her pistol unattended in the stand-easy, the boys thought they'd teach her a little something by leaving it in pieces for her. She also had to ask for an assist.
Next time she showed up with an SA80. The RMP Maj took it away from her :crybaby:
DF
Gunner
Army.ca Veteran
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Paramedtech,
Ack, note that it is your responsibility as a soldier/sailor/airman to be comfortable with your personal weapon. If you are not comfortable, you take the steps to be comfortable because its not a game.
I know I was not comfortable the first time I was issued a pistol with live ammo and I made damn sure I was comfortable with it in very short order. Several tours with pistols and rifles in my possession and nary a ND problem. I respect my weapon as my professional tool but it does not control me.
God knows on tour you have a lot of time to practice all you want...
Cheers,
Ack, note that it is your responsibility as a soldier/sailor/airman to be comfortable with your personal weapon. If you are not comfortable, you take the steps to be comfortable because its not a game.
I know I was not comfortable the first time I was issued a pistol with live ammo and I made damn sure I was comfortable with it in very short order. Several tours with pistols and rifles in my possession and nary a ND problem. I respect my weapon as my professional tool but it does not control me.
God knows on tour you have a lot of time to practice all you want...
Cheers,
It's easy to blame the indivdual when they with claim he/she is not qualified therefore he/she should not be charged but what about that persons unit/leadership that allowed him to carry a weapon he was not qualified to use. If that person was telling the truth then the leadership should be discplined.
If that persons's commander was unaware that he/she was not qualified that is another example of poor leadership -- not knowing your troops.
Should the Army allow the soldier to fall on his sword to protect poor leadership....................
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claybot said:
A good point, but I think he should have said from the beginning that he wasn't qualified and not taken the pistol to begin with. Then perhaps they could let him do a PWT to get qualified, or have him do something that doesn't require it. His leadership had little to do with it, he was tasked to the gate and they put him on as a searcher with a pistol. So as they handed him a pistol and told him he was searching he should have maybe said 'Well actually i'm not qualified.' Or something of that nature.
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