NDHQ Dress Code

[armyvern]

So a living-in member going to get lunch on a Saturday is going to work? Brilliant.

I'm well aware of the social and networking aspects of the mess. But it's not work. That's the whole point of the mess and why you're not supposed to discuss 'work' when you're in there. Someone with your 'time-in' should know that.

Well,

You complained earlier and told everyone to "try that in Borden".

Word up - You too can eat in the Officer's Dining Room in Borden in jeans just like I did. From 1600hrs Friday night until 1830hrs Sunday night. During the week though, this lowly Warrant Officer (who *gasp* was ordered to attend that Mess for meals etc) wore casual business attire just like the rules said. I'm surprised that I've actually survived to tell you about it given the 'end-of-the-world' status that a requirement to comply with that regulation seems to infer.

 

[ltmaverick25]

I think that after nearly a quarter century I know what the standard is, but thanks for dodging my question.

If the concern is optics, ie. the presentation of a professional force to the public, then why is the matter of dress on a Friday an issue when a member wearing jeans would blend into and be completely indistinguishable from the myriad of Public Servants coming and going from the puzzle palace? 

If it were truly a matter of the Forces looking unprofessional for wearing jeans on Casual Friday, then why wouldn't it be written into the collective agreements of the various PS tables that they have a dress code too?  After all, a denim-wearing civvie entering or leaving Pearkes could very well be mistaken for a slovenly military member, and bring the CF into disrepute.

If denim and sneakers are that unprofessional looking, then why - for the paltry sum of $1 per Friday - are military members permitted to relax their dress even beyond the "Dress With a Difference" regulations, and be permitted to wear jeans and sneakers during the GCWCC campaign in the fall?  Is that not saying "Wearing jeans projects an unprofessional appearance of the CF, but we're willing to look unprofessional if you're community-minded and donate to charity"?

Just to clarify, as ive stated before, I think that optics matter and that dress codes play an important role.  However, with that said, I also have a big problem with a member being denied service at NDHQ because he was wearing jeans.  The truth is, we have many dress codes across the CF.  Each mess is different, bases are different, RSM's are different ect...  Its all well and good to have a sign on your door, but what good does that sign do for someone walking in the building for the first time who is out of town?  I support the dress codes wholeheartedly but I also support some flexibility when the situation warrants it.

As for your question about dress down Fridays...  In my opinion we should not have such things.  I dont think its appropriate for a military to be coming into work in civies like that.  I do beleive that it is unprofessional.  Its nice that they want to support charity, and I think doing so is a good idea, but there are other ways to do it.

As I mentioned previously, a military force needs to project a certain type of optics.  Its part of our culture and ethos to wear uniforms to a high standard and NOT COMPLAIN about having to do so.  If going to a mess on a weekend to eat entails wearing a golf shirt and khakis instead of jeans and a tshirt then so be it.  DO IT, and dont complain about fashion sence. 

I am not directing this at you specifically, or anyone else on this site for that matter, but after 15 years in, it gets a little tiring having to endure the complaints from the newer member who insist that "I am too cool for this dress code".  I am glad that someone thinks that jeans, a tshirt and sneakers are fashionable and golf shirts or buttoned shirts are not...  But again, who cares?  We have over 60,000 members in the CF.  Surely not everyone is going to share the same sence of fashion and style.  No dress code can ever make everyone happy, but dress codes and higher standards of dress do play an important role in military culture. 

And NO, the dress code absolutely does NOT represent a style of dress that is outdated.  Jeans and tshirts may very well be the form of dress preferred by most when not at work, myself included.  But in a professional working environment, this is usually (yes of course not always) the norm.

I used to work for TD Waterhouse a few years back.  There was no such thing as wearing jeans to work.  Why?  Because optics matter. 

 

[ltmaverick25]

On a truer note, the CF doesn't employ (or pay) any civilian employees. The CF employs (and pays) soldiers, sailors, airmen and airwomen.

DND employs (and pays) civilians. We, in the CF, comprise a small part of DND, but civvies comprise no part of the CF - not even a 'cadre'. Different employer - different rules. If we had the same employer, you'd have a Union rep that you could go whine to.

Your point is well taken, but I still think that DND civilian employees should have a certain dress code in place where appropriate.

 

[exgunnertdo]

What I find odd is that a lot of the resistance to a civvi clothing dress code seems to be that it's more work to "dress up."

Really?  Are khakis or casual dress pant harder to put on than jeans?  Are dress shoes harder to tie than runners?  And how can you consider yourself an adult and not own a pair of dress pants and dress shoes?  My 8-year-old has both in his closet.

I may be pushing 40, but I still think it is possible to adhere to the dress code and be stylish.  I don't think I look like something out of the 50s when I go to work on Fridays in the NCR.  (And I do wear 3Bs the other 4 days).

 

[PMedMoe]

I wear CADPAT (due to rank) four days out of the week in Ottawa.  IMHO, I look much better on Friday in my civilian dress clothes.  I don't know why they call it "dress down" Fridays because CADPAT is a heck of a lot more comfortable and easier to put on.  However, it is nice to see people in something other than a uniform.  Also, on the few Fridays a year that we are allowed to wear jeans, they cannot be overly faded, no holes, rips, etc, etc.

I personally see nothing wrong with the dress code in Ottawa and keep in mind, they aren't the only ones who have it.  Going to the (former) BOR in Petawawa in civilians used to be the same.

 

[NL_engineer]

Pier, I still don't see how putting on a pair of khaki pants and a polo shirt is harder then jeans and t shirt.  I frequently wear khaki pants and a polo, and it takes me no longer to get dressed then when i wear jeans and t-shirt.

Well if the shirt has to be tucked in, then we should fight for change  ;D

 

[PMedMoe]

Well if the shirt has to be tucked in, then we should fight for change  ;D

Yes we should because some people have lost the "right" to tuck their shirts in.  Me included. 

 

[Monsoon]

There's your problem.

An organization that doesn't reflect the values of the people it wants to employ (including their sense of what constitutes appropriately dressy attire) will have difficulty recruiting and retaining them. That's not a personal problem, it's a CF problem.

Those of us who have stayed in for more than a few years may have grown accustomed to "sucking it up", but we can't forget that the majority of people in Canada don't like dressing oddly for the simple reason that dress regulations won't permit supervisors to exercise reasonable discretion. Maybe the argument can be made that people who object to being told that they can't wear expensive, fashionable and well-maintained jeans shouldn't join the CF - but maybe that attitude is part of the reason that we consistently fail to meet our recruiting targets. So who's problem is that?

 

[Haggis]

Oh, for the love of.....!!!!

Going back six pages to Flawed Design's original post, it's hard to believe we've killed so many electrons over what is really a simple issue.

He went to the NDHQ for an appointment, clearly arranged in advance.  That mean's he's on duty.  That means that he should be appropriately attired in the dress of the day.  So?

Yes, yes, I know he's on redeployment leave but, c'mon people, this APPOINTMENT is DUTY TIME!!!!!  Nobody in NDHQ knew or cared that he was on leave.  But they did care that he attended an appointment in a HQ Orderly Room in inappropriate attire.  AND THEY SHOULD CARE ABOUT THAT.

And what's so friggin' wrong about wearing a uniform while on duty?  Grow up!

I don't play the "casual/dress down" Friday game at NDHQ.  I show up in uniform.  Nobody EVER dares to question or criticize my dress.  If they did, I'd eat them alive, right there on the spot.

DND civilian employees, while they do not have a "dress code", are subject to certain expectations regarding dress.  In short, the higher your classification and level, the more businesslike you are expected to dress.

Lastly, DND civilian employees have been corrected for attire which is inappropriate for the workplace.  I've seen it done.  I've done it.  I'll do it again.

Can we go to the Mess now?

 

[Michael OLeary]

Can we go to the Mess now?

That depends.  Is everyone appropriately dressed?

 

[Jarnhamar]

That depends.  Is everyone appropriately dressed?

LOL
touche

Regardless of what I think, I should have called ahead to see if there were dress regs or just wore a uniform.
No excuse for that, I'm at fault. Maybe a couple of years ago they were less strict on it? Maybe maybe not.
The dress code for military messes probably deserves it's own thread, seems like theres a lot of issues with it.
Forgve a grunt for venting eh 

Perhaps a bit of a thread drift but Tess you work in recruiting? During interviews and such how much emphasis is placed on someones dress a appearance when it comes to the interview portion?

I've seen a few recruits that can barely write their own name. One literally can't sign his own name.  I guess what was upsetting me is that some traditions/standards which I struggle with (dress code for clothing stores) remain but intellectual and physical standards to join this high class and well dressed military seem to be dropping.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I've seen a few recruits that can barely write their own name. One literally can't sign his own name.  I guess what was upsetting me is that some traditions/standards which I struggle with (dress code for clothing stores) remain but intellectual and physical standards to join this high class and well dressed military seem to be dropping.

I think a lot of things, dress and recruiting standards among them, come down to a sliding scale of perceptions and realities.

We can get used to the expected standards of dress on one base without realizing that things are differently regulated, or differently enforced on other bases.  But we never get briefings on those little details when we're heading off to a new location.  Over-dressing is always the safe approach in unknown territory (Here be dragons, wearing coats of arms.)  But that's not always a realistic expectations when traveling. I do remember the days when going on major exercises out of one's home province meant that officers packed a jacket and tie, just in case.

For such things as recruiting standards, the general standards have risen, but perhaps not as much as both the average capability of applicants and, especially, the average expectations we now put on recruits and young soldiers/sailors/airmen (airpeople?).  This leaves us in a situation where today's marginal candidate, who may be head and shoulders above his/her peers of 30 years ago, is still further behind the power curve on learning and skill development than that peer was "way back when."

 

[SupersonicMax]

For me, if I'm working, I'll wear the uniform.  If I'm not working, I'll wear whatever I want, to the mess or on base.  So far, noboby told me my jeans were innapropriate.

Oh and I normally don't shave on days off.  Never got in trouble for showing up at work on a day off unshaved.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I've seen a few recruits that can barely write their own name. One literally can't sign his own name.  I guess what was upsetting me is that some traditions/standards which I struggle with (dress code for clothing stores) remain but intellectual and physical standards to join this high class and well dressed military seem to be dropping.

Work in recruiting?  Naw, I help another type of military member, far removed from the recruiting days of their lives. 

From people who have no concept of what a military is about.

You yourself admit, that by going tot he HQ of our Military, in the Nations capital, a little forethought was required.  I mean we can sit here and challenge every tradition that is archaic, however, showing up in a way you know will attract attention to yourself, is not going promote change within the system.

For me, if I'm working, I'll wear the uniform.  If I'm not working, I'll wear whatever I want, to the mess or on base.  So far, noboby told me my jeans were innapropriate.

Oh and I normally don't shave on days off.  Never got in trouble for showing up at work on a day off unshaved.

Good on you, now with the original theme of the thread, would you show up at NDHQ dressed that way?

dileas

tess

 

[SupersonicMax]

Good on you, now with the original theme of the thread, would you show up at NDHQ dressed that way?

dileas

tess

On a day off?  You bet.

 

[Haggis]

Good on you, now with the original theme of the thread, would you show up at NDHQ dressed that way?

On a day off?  You bet.

Clearly, you need to find more productive ways to spend your days off, Max.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Clearly, you need to find more productive ways to spend your days off, Max.

Day off as in "oh, we need you to come in on your day off to sign that claim", which happened a few times.  I don't mind it, but I won't change to go there.  I don't go to work for the sake of going to work on a day off!

 

[the 48th regulator]

Clearly, you need to find more productive ways to spend your days off, Max.

Bwahahaha,

Cheers Haggis, that was better than I could ever come up with, and thank you for making me laugh.

Max,

What can I say,  do what you wish, but you going to NDHQ on any kind of duty, you wouldn't.  Admit it.  And why would you hand in a claim with out it being signed??

Man you are a person full of rebellious tendencies.  Next thing is you will state that on your day off, you even eat your desert first, bud in line, and use a spoon for everything that you eat.

Man, this new military is cutting edge.

dileas

tess

 

[ltmaverick25]

On a day off?  You bet.

The sad reality is, you might even get away with it.  The same cannot be said for NCMs though.  I remember heading into the armories on a day off to meet up with a friend, the intent was to spend no more then 5 minutes on DND property and then off we would go to whatever our plans were.  I had not shaved and was severely jacked up over it (was an NCM at the time).  After taking a commission, I have seen other junior officers guilty of far greater offenses related to dress and deportment and nobody says a word to them, other then me that is...

 

[aesop081]

  And why would you hand in a claim with out it being signed??

Tess, i dont know about Max's unit but in mine, we used to pre-sign our claims when handing them in for finalization. Now we have to hand them in on our return and the clerk does his/her thing with it. We then get an email telling us it is done and we have to go in a sign it before a deposit/recovery is done.