"Never Pass a Lie" and other moral/ethical scenarios

[Kirkhill]

I take it you are of the opinion he should have told a blatant lie to the troops as the CO directed then?

In fairness to the CO, the man that both put me forward for my commission and put me in my position in front of those troops, he personally never ordered me to lie.  The message came down through the Chain of Command.  At the time I was a MITCP officer and this was part of the OJT.  The order came from my supervising Senior Subaltern - verbally.

I remember wondering at the time, given that this was a Brigade tasking, how it was that I was the only officer on parade with his troops telling them to show up.  Everyone else seemed to have absconded to the mess early that evening.

A Coy, Unit or even Bde Parade (at least armoury parade) addressed by the appropriate level of command might have encouraged a larger turnout.

As it was the tasking was honoured.  I got a half-platoon turnout (ie most of the troops I addressed that evening).  I made a hash of the actual support but work was done on behalf of the Brigade for the Scouts.

Honestly, I put this point forward to highlight my personal sense that there are many instances where there are no DS solutions.  Leadership generates many opportunities to find out what you are made of.  I have come the conclusion that most, if not all, the decisions I have ever made have been the wrong ones.  At least judging from the advice I got after the fact.....  :nod:

Just one other point on Leadership:  I have never considered myself a leader - no doubt many would agree with that assessment - I prefer to work independently and be responsible for my own actions.    Having said that, there have been many occasions through my life and careers where I have had reason to turn around and find myself staring into a group of faces that have decided to follow me.....

 

[ballz]

In fairness to the CO, the man that both put me forward for my commission and put me in my position in front of those troops, he personally never ordered me to lie.  The message came down through the Chain of Command.  At the time I was a MITCP officer and this was part of the OJT.  The order came from my supervising Senior Subaltern - verbally.

So it never came down from your CoC then. Your senior subbie, who is not your CoC (unless he was your OC. which would probably be a first), just gave you some very poor advice, which you decided not to take (good on you).

I see no moral delimma here, the CoC never told you / suggested to you to lie. You had a task that would be hard to get a turnout for. The senior sub offered some poor advice and you didn't follow it. You accomplished the task in an honest manner, no disloyalty to the CoC or dishonesty to the troops required...

 

[Gunner98]

If setting up Boy Scout tents presents a dilemma for the troops, how excited will they be when tasked to fight fires in an artillery range impact area.  I don't think you ever need to lie to troops and as has been stated, no lie in the military is unfounded for long.  You can never be a leader without followers, whether they are willing or curious, it is your job to execute the task, not be their friend or entertainer.  It is amazing what troops will do for an enthusiastic, respected leader without more than the normal amount of complaining.  Likewise it nto unusual for a cam net and poles to fall and bounce several times on a poor leader.  Sometimes we confuse self-respect for self-esteem:  "To esteem anything is to evaluate it positively and hold it in high regard, but evaluation gets us into trouble because while we sometimes win, we also sometimes lose. To respect something, on the other hand, is to accept it." http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199911/self-esteem-vs-self-respect

 

[pbi]

If setting up Boy Scout tents presents a dilemma for the troops, how excited will they be when tasked to fight fires in an artillery range impact area.  I don't think you ever need to lie to troops and as has been stated, no lie in the military is unfounded for long.  You can never be a leader without followers, whether they are willing or curious, it is your job to execute the task, not be their friend or entertainer.  It is amazing what troops will do for an enthusiastic, respected leader without more than the normal amount of complaining.  Likewise it nto unusual for a cam net and poles to fall and bounce several times on a poor leader.  Sometimes we confuse self-respect for self-esteem:  "To esteem anything is to evaluate it positively and hold it in high regard, but evaluation gets us into trouble because while we sometimes win, we also sometimes lose. To respect something, on the other hand, is to accept it." http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199911/self-esteem-vs-self-respect

I'm a bit confused by your reasoning, between your two posts. Surely you're having us on, right? You don't really believe that lying to the troops was the way to handle an unpleasant job? I mean, you say:

I don't think you ever need to lie to troops and as has been stated, no lie in the military is unfounded for long.

OK: I'm with you 100%, although this isn't what I got out of your earlier post.  But then you say:

Likewise it nto unusual for a cam net and poles to fall and bounce several times on a poor leader.

In my experience as a soldier, NCO and officer, this type of "punishment" happens most often to people who have demonstrated a lack of integrity and respect in their dealings with their troops. So, isn't this a possible result of lying in the first place?

I don't understand what this next phrase means:

Sometimes we confuse self-respect for self-esteem:  "To esteem anything is to evaluate it positively and hold it in high regard, but evaluation gets us into trouble because while we sometimes win, we also sometimes lose. To respect something, on the other hand, is to accept it.

Can you expand a bit on this? I don't understand "respect" as being mere "acceptance". I have "accepted" all sorts of idiots because I couldn't do anything about them. I don't think this meant that I "respected" them.

Cheers

 

[Pusser]

I'm really confused as to why anyone would see the need to lie or sugar-coat the truth in this scenario.  As long as setting up tents for scouts has been properly approved as a community support activity (and, yes this can be legitimately done), I really don't see how anyone could object to it or feel it is beneath them.  Soldiers, sailors and air people are tasked to do many things that are not strictly in line with their occupation specifications (except for that one that says, "other duties as required").  Some are less pleasant than others.  Personally, I would happily set up tents rather than clean latrines (although as a young sailor I would volunteer to clean the heads because the tools I was allowed to use made it the easier job - allowed to use mops and a hose in an era when decks were scrubbed by hand).  When I was a young reservist, I would have jumped at the opportunity for an extra day's pay, not caring a whit about the job itself.  As a general rule, it would likely have also involved a little socializing with my buds afterwards.  Win win.

 

[Gunner98]

I'm a bit confused

OK: I'm with you 100%, although this isn't what I got out of your earlier post. 

I don't understand

pbi,

This all I am getting from your post. 

You are confused, but you are with me 100% but you don't understand!

So no, I am not sure I can explain at least until I have sobered up enough to make sense of my posts and your askance for clarity!