New Bin-Laden Tape

[Cdn Blackshirt]

I think there should be a distiction made between US policy and the policy of the rest of the western world. We get shafted by their policy, look at NAFTA, the softwood lumber problems, BSE, etc. Their attitude of "with us or against us" is nothing new, it has always been around. It's only been made a public statement recently. The US had an amazing show of support after 9/11 but they squandered it with lies and deciet. The "war on terror" was a joke, if they were able to find Saddam they should have been able to find Osama... they've had 3 years to do it, are they even making a effort anymore? I think they don't want to find him, as long as he's around they will be able to write themselves blank cheques for anything to do with their millitary...

The US not only trained and funded Osama, but they funded Saddam for many years. I remember seeing pictures or Iraqi troops (at the beginning of gulf war I) with the latest and greatest American kit... obviously they got it from somewhere... I agree that US foreign policy creates enemies, it is obvious not just in the middle east but all over the world - Asia, Africa, Central/South america... it's easier to name continents than it is to name countries...

Does anyone remember that incident in China a few years ago when that chinese fighter jet collided with a US spy plane? The Chinese gov't said that the US was violating their airspace. The US said no, we were 150 miles offshore, at the limit or chinese airspace. It seems that everyone else said the US should have been 200 miles off the coast, as defined by international law. The US said that that law is good for everyone else, except for them...

There is also the international ban on landmines, everyone that signed this treaty will not use land mines. The US signed the treaty but says no one is allowed to use landmines except for them.

Yes, I agree that the US makes their own enemies... looking forward to anyone proving me wrong...

All right.

1)   The US stepped up and invested massive funds to rebuild Germany and Japan after WWII.
2)   The US stepped up and use incredible resources to keep Berlin from getting swallowed by the soviets.  
3)   The US stepped up and supported Israel which is the only reason there wasn't a second holocaust and let's be clear that every other nation the planet would've stood by and let it happen.
4)   The US stepped up and intervened in Bosnia-Herzogovena to protect muslims while the Europeans doddled.
5)   The US has brought democracy to Afghanistan (including a constitution guaranteeing the rights and freedoms for its women)
6)   The US has almost brought democracy to Iraq (which will include a constitution which will be the first to protect ethnic minorities in any Islamic Middle Eastern Country - by comparison if you're a Jew try to get a visa to Saudi Arabia and see what happens).
7)   Etc.

Bottom Line:   The United States is the only country in the world who has the ethic and the ability to make positive change on this planet.   If the United States did not exist, this world would be a much more tyrannical, ethnically cleansed and repressive place.   So have they made enemies - Yes.   They've made enemies of those who want to perpetrate evil and those that are willing to profit from them.   France, Russia and China were all willing to take bribes (in the billions) to keep Saddam in power whilst he killed 100,000's of his own people.   And radical Islamists of all stripes hate the USA for not allowing that holocaust that they want to perpetrate.   They've made enemies of radical Islamists because they have allowed democracy into Afghanistan as opposed to Theocratic Council of Mullahs.   They have allowed women to work, to vote, to drive and to get an education whereas radical Islamists would prefer them in servitude.   So has the United States made enemies?   Yes.   But I would argue they made those enemies for the right reasons and it is unfortunate that you are too blind to see that....



Matthew.  

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Isn't it funny how the rhetoric kings shut up when someone presents facts?
Well said.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from Banko,
Does anyone remember that incident in China a few years ago when that chinese fighter jet collided with a US spy plane? The Chinese gov't said that the US was violating their airspace. The US said no, we were 150 miles offshore, at the limit or chinese airspace. It seems that everyone else said the US should have been 200 miles off the coast, as defined by international law. The US said that that law is good for everyone else, except for them...

Maybe before you spout off on your anti-USA rant you should try something like checking the facts first....or do you make up your mind without them?

US Spy Plane Did Violate China's Airspace: Powell
US Secretary of State Colin Powell has admitted that the ill-fated US EP-3 surveillance plane did violate China's airspace, and said he was sorry for that.

Appearing on CBS television's "Face the Nation" program Sunday, Powell said: "We do acknowledge that we violated their (China's) airspace, ... And we regret that. We have expressed sorrow for it. And we're sorry that that happened."

The secretary also repeated his regret over the loss of a Chinese pilot in the April 1 spy plane incident. He said that "there is a widow (the wife of missing Chinese pilot Wang Wei) out there, and we regret that. We're sorry that her husband was lost."

While joining TV program "Fox News Sunday," Powell said: "We have expressed regrets and we expressed our sorry, and we are sorry that a life was lost. The only life lost at this point was that of a Chinese pilot. And so I think it's a very proper thing to express our regrets and sorrow over that."

A U.S. EP-3 electronic surveillance plane bumped into a Chinese jet fighter near China's Hainan Island on April 1, causing it to crash into the South China Sea. The damaged U.S. plane made an emergency landing in an airstrip on the island. Wang Wei, the Chinese pilot from the crashed fighter, is still missing.

The Chinese government has made solemn representations with the U.S. side, demanding that Washington bear full responsibility for the incident and apologize to China. 

 

[GGboy]

Look: the U.S. has made more than its share of foreign policy mistakes -- show me a country that hasn't.
But the idea that their various well-documented examples of stupid or immoral policies somehow led to 9/11 or the current rash of kidnappings and murders in Iraq is just ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as the idea that murderous scumbags like bin Laden distinguish between Americans and British or French or German or Canadians ... we're all just "crusaders" to these guys.
They'd as soon kill a Canadian as an American, given the chance, and they certainly don't give a damn about our "soft power," "peacekeeping tradition" or any of the other fables spouted by the brains trust at DFAIT.
But don't take my word for it: Go ask the guys in 3 RCR.

 

[winchable]

Word on the street is Bin Ladens talking less junk because the schism between extreme and everyone else is widening so much now that he'll lose any protection al-quaeda might have been affored by fence sitters.

 

[Infanteer]

Word on the street is Bin Ladens talking less junk because the schism between extreme and everyone else is widening so much now that he'll lose any protection al-quaeda might have been affored by fence sitters.

Makes sense from me.   He probably is somewhat concerned that Americans are sitting in Kabul and Baghdad and have taken an interest in what others are doing.   As well, the fact that affiliates are beheading fellow Muslims now may not sit well with the fence sitters - they didn't mind poking America in the eye but a raging Polyphemus and a war between believers in Dar-al-Islam doesn't seem to be what they bargined for.   My best guess is to look to how Crown Prince Abdullah does - if AQ loses Saudi then they're in for it.

What does everyone else think?

 

[Marauder]

I think binnie is scared for the same reason sKerry should be... Bush and the headshed in the Pentagon are kicking ass, taking names, and not being squeemish about it. OBL was all fire, brimstone, and Allah's will being done after 9/11, but now he seems to be running hard on trying to play nice with the little minions of the Great Satan. To me, that says he knows his only way to save his sorry ass is to try and pump up a sKerry administration in the minds of the American people (the ones he swore he would exterminate, mind you) and pray that they vote Bush out. To me, that says more for Bush and his last four years in charge than anything Karl Rove can throw in an attack ad.

As for any more binnie videos, there's really only one I want to see. I want to see one where binnie is down on his knees crying like a bitch, with a squad of SOCOM/JSOC types standing around him singing "Courtesy of the Red, White, and Blue" by Toby Keith. Then the biggest operator of the bunch would take a dull, rusty piece of steel taken from the heart of Ground Zero and proceed to saw off the bastard's head. For the finale, I want to see the guys drink Jim Beam out of his skull, and then take a big steaming shit in it, before burying it wrapped in a pig's stomach in the field in Pennsylvania where Mr. Beamer & Co. first fought back against bin Laden and associates. That's the only bin Laden video worth paying any attention to.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Word on the street is Bin Ladens talking less junk because the schism between extreme and everyone else is widening so much now that he'll lose any protection al-quaeda might have been affored by fence sitters.

An interesting take on it ... I've read a few opinons (and suggested earlier in this thread) that note that under the usual rhetoric (+ the Michael Moore rhetoric) the overal tone has changed quite a bit: he's a lot less cocky, and instead of going on and on about historical grievances, just issued the "quasi-threat" about not attacking, etc. ... not quite a surrender, but much less threatening (of course some feel it was a signal for some pre-election attacks, too).

Apparently a significant chunk of the original video was edited for the airwaves, including a 6-minute tirade against Bush (specifically 'his all-about-the-oil invasion of Iraq').

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

As for any more binnie videos, there's really only one I want to see. I want to see one where binnie is down on his knees crying like a *****, with a squad of SOCOM/JSOC types standing around him singing "Courtesy of the Red, White, and Blue" by Toby Keith. Then the biggest operator of the bunch would take a dull, rusty piece of steel taken from the heart of Ground Zero and proceed to saw off the *******'s head. For the finale, I want to see the guys drink Jim Beam out of his skull, and then take a big steaming crap in it, before burying it wrapped in a pig's stomach in the field in Pennsylvania where Mr. Beamer & Co. first fought back against bin Laden and associates. That's the only bin Laden video worth paying any attention to.

Gotta go ... I'm off to Roger's to preorder that one!  :threat:

 

[dutchie]

Ok, I have had a belly full of debating the whole 'Bush is the devil', war in Iraq is BS, etc, etc, etc. My views have not changed, but my head hurts from beating it against the wall so much - I need a break.

But let's say for instance that Bush is as bad as everyone (including me) says he is. Compared to the other US Presidents in history, he's a little more aggressive, sure, but not off the charts by any means. Clinton was no angel, Reagan really went after US interests abroad (Cent America, Cold War, Middel East, etc), Kennedy (the darling of Democrats everywhere) invaded Cuba and then there's the whole 'Vietnam thing', and so on... What I'm saying is this: Bush is doing what every other US President has done, and what Kerry will do: Serve the US interests domestically and abroad. Period. They have the power and the will to act with impunity, right or wrong (I would argue wrong). Debate is great, but there has to be some sense of reality.

Two things came to mind when I saw that video:

1-Bin Laden doesn't look sick, lame, or injured. Reports have been surfacing since Afghanistan was invaded saying he had kidney disease, needed dialysis, on his death bed, injured in a bombing of Tora Bora or whatever,   etc. He looks pretty healthy to me..

2-Why the hell has he been able to excape capture all this time? It must be one of two things: an INABILITY or an UNWILLINGNESS to capture him by the US.

Which is it?

 

[Goober]

My head hurts for the same reason yours does Caesar.

To answer your question, I would say inability. I really do think that the US, and Bush and co. want to catch him, I don't believe there is any conspiracy to not catch him, but Bin Ladin has many supporters who are helping him keep safe.

 

[Acorn]

If the ability to capture UBL existed Bush would have ordered it by now. That would be a sure four more years. If UBL is captured tonight then we can talk conspiracies.

Acorn

 

[Britney Spears]

But let's say for instance that Bush is as bad as everyone (including me) says he is. Compared to the other US Presidents in history, he's a little more aggressive, sure, but not off the charts by any means.

Aggressive in his pursuit of the war on terror? No. Aggressive in first foisting on to the public and then carrying out the invasion of Iraq, which contributes nothing at all to the destruction of Al Qaida or the capture of OBL? Yes. I suspect that if half the resources used to invade Iraq were put to use in Afghanistan, OBL may well be already captured.

Why do people give Bush credit for the defeat of the Taliban? Most of the countries bordering Afghanistan (Russian, China, India, The central Asian states) certainly have no sympathy towards them or OBL, no nation in the world has anything  good to say about them, OBL was known to be in Afghanistan.  All of this was widely known BEFORE 9/11. Post 9/11, how do you know when the whole world hates you? When CANADA declares war on you and sends ground troops. I don't see what meaningful contribution or insightful leadership Bush has provided since 9/11.  How many weeks did he spend debating over whether to topple the Taliban? How many skeptical foreign allies did he have to convince?  How much leadership, foresight, diplomacy or worldiness( In my opinion attributes of a good president) did it take to declare war on the Taliban and AL Qaida, after they publicly admit responsibility for the spectacular murder of 3000 Americans? None. It was not a "tough decision", I (Britney Spears) could have made it just as easily.

I am firmly of the opinion that Bush has done nothing during the GWoT in Afghanistan before or after 9/11 to prove that he is a better leader than I (Britney Spears). I invite the readers of the forum to prove otherwise.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Man enough to use his real name? ^-^

 

[banko]

Man enough to use his real name? ^-^

Or just man enough not to worry about having a different opinion than the forum moderator... ;D

 

[Britney Spears]

Man enough to use his real name?

If my name contained any of the elements "Geroge" or "Bush" I would not hesitate to make it known.
I would also have degrees from Yale and Harvard, as well as a lucrative career in business, despite having no academic prowess and no business sense that didn't come with the name.

So, I think you'll agree that "using his real name" has not helped his case in our little discussion.

 

[banko]

All right.

1)   The US stepped up and invested massive funds to rebuild Germany and Japan after WWII.
2)   The US stepped up and use incredible resources to keep Berlin from getting swallowed by the soviets.  
3)   The US stepped up and supported Israel which is the only reason there wasn't a second holocaust and let's be clear that every other nation the planet would've stood by and let it happen.
4)   The US stepped up and intervened in Bosnia-Herzogovena to protect muslims while the Europeans doddled.
5)   The US has brought democracy to Afghanistan (including a constitution guaranteeing the rights and freedoms for its women)
6)   The US has almost brought democracy to Iraq (which will include a constitution which will be the first to protect ethnic minorities in any Islamic Middle Eastern Country - by comparison if you're a Jew try to get a visa to Saudi Arabia and see what happens).
7)   Etc.

Bottom Line:   The United States is the only country in the world who has the ethic and the ability to make positive change on this planet.   If the United States did not exist, this world would be a much more tyrannical, ethnically cleansed and repressive place.   So have they made enemies - Yes.   They've made enemies of those who want to perpetrate evil and those that are willing to profit from them.   France, Russia and China were all willing to take bribes (in the billions) to keep Saddam in power whilst he killed 100,000's of his own people.   And radical Islamists of all stripes hate the USA for not allowing that holocaust that they want to perpetrate.   They've made enemies of radical Islamists because they have allowed democracy into Afghanistan as opposed to Theocratic Council of Mullahs.   They have allowed women to work, to vote, to drive and to get an education whereas radical Islamists would prefer them in servitude.   So has the United States made enemies?   Yes.   But I would argue they made those enemies for the right reasons and it is unfortunate that you are too blind to see that....



Matthew.  

Your points are valid, but I still think that you are making the US gov't out to be more angellic than they really are. I think they invested money in Germany after WWII only out of fear of the Russians. That is why there was East and West Germany, the wall, Cold War, etc. The US helped Japan after killing thousands of people by dropping 2 atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, even though these were not military targets. Helping these countries wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts or because they wanted to help people devastated by war. You said that the US stepped up resources to stop Berlin from getting swallowed up by the Soviets, why was it so important to keep Berlin away from them?

I don't agree that the US is the only country in the world that can make a positive change in the world, and hopefully they are the only ones that think they can do it all on their own. Should they really be given cart blanche to do whatever they want? I would hope that the US still has to be accountable for their actions. I agree that Saddam was a pretty terrible guy and he did not deserve to be in power, but did the US really go in just to liberate the Iraqi people? If they did, when do they plan to go in to liberate the North Koreans or the people suffering in Darfur? The UN and the rest of the world should do more to make the world a better place, and maybe the US should make a better effort to work WITH member countries of the UN.

I honestly don't think that the US is some great evil nation, but let's not fool anyone here - they are looking out for their best interests... do you think the makers of US foriegn policy really care about some guy hearding goats in Afghanistan or if some Afghani woman is allowed to drive?

I would rather see the US as the world's only superpower than a country like China, but letting the American gov't do whatever they want is not a good idea.

 

[dutchie]

Aggressive in his pursuit of the war on terror? No. Aggressive in first foisting on to the public and then carrying out the invasion of Iraq, which contributes nothing at all to the destruction of Al Qaida or the capture of OBL? Yes. I suspect that if half the resources used to invade Iraq were put to use in Afghanistan, OBL may well be already captured.

This is a first. I have actually defended Bush to someone. I can't believe I prompted someone to reply that I give Bush too much credit.

Wow. I'm gonna save this one.

(no offence Britney. If you read some of my other posts, you'll see I am no fan of Bush).

 

[Britney Spears]

I can't believe I prompted someone to reply that I give Bush too much credit.

It wasn't a reply to you in particular, I've only skimmed some of your posts but I get (and share) the setiment.

While I'm throwing down gauntlets, I'm also going to state my firm opinion that Dick Cheny is the real POTUSA, GWB just plays one on TV.

 

[KevinB]

While I'm throwing down gauntlets, I'm also going to state my firm opinion that Dick Cheny is the real POTUSA, GWB just plays one on TV.

WTF - What planet are you on - Dick is hospital bound more than not.