New Dress Regs 🤣

[btrudy]

Effective military culture requires people to submerge their egos, not parade them.

It requires people to work together as a part of a team in order to get the job done. It does not require people to ... not be human beings, with the full range of emotions and desires that being a human entails.

We're not robots, not do we want people to be robots.

 

[Remius]

Well, if we truly cared about everyone's freedom of expression not being curtailed, we would let our people say whatever they want on social media, and speak to the media about anything the forces do that they disagree with. That's not realistic, considering how much damage one untrained CIC Officer Cadet could have potentially done if the Forces hadn't taken swift action. We live in a country with reasonable limits, someone joining the CAF should except that they won't be able to do whatever they want.

Sure. But why would you limit homosexual relations or transgender types wearing what they want?

 

[Brad Sallows]

The ability to work as a team presupposes the ability to not put "me" first. The baseline is that a person who doesn't intend to be dramatic doesn't start by doing dramatic things.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It requires people to work together as a part of a team in order to get the job done. It does not require people to ... not be human beings, with the full range of emotions and desires that being a human entails.

We're not robots, not do we want people to be robots.

Plot twist: we start using robots and they start bitching about unlocking different skins and cosmetics because they all want to be different.

 

[Kilted]

Sure. But why would you limit homosexual relations or transgender types wearing what they want?

It's called a uniform for a reason. There were already mechanisms in place to allow people to pick which gender DEU they wore.

When someone is in uniform they are representing the Canadian Forces as a whole, uniforms are meant to make everyone look the same, not find new ways to express themselves.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

The ability to work as a team presupposes the ability to not put "me" first. The baseline is that a person who doesn't intend to be dramatic doesn't start by doing dramatic things.

This is a bit of a stretch, I am going to have to say.

We already have enough "me" aspects of our organization that demonstrate we can be a group of individuals united in a common effort. If we weren't, every Vandoo, Royal, and Patricia would be rebadged to generic RCIC numbered battalions and open to posting plots around the country. Same with RMC Grads vs DEO, CFR, UTPNCM, CiviU folks.

We spent 50 years undoing numerous Unification Era "advances" because they weren't individual enough for some folks. You break it down all the way to trade, Pl, Section, fire team... we all want something that we can identify as being unique to our experience.

Uniform dress isn't uniform in the sense that we intermingle as a CAF (many Blue, White, and Green shirts on my last parade, all dispersed within the ranks), we all have different bits and bobs hanging off of them, and yes, even our physical appearance even before 6 Sept 22 is different based on gender, religion, or even personal preference.

This is just widening the Arcs we already have. It's not going to turn every CAF Member into some free thinking anarchist, nor are we going to actively recruit or attract those kinds of folks (very few anti-establishment types actively seek government employment...).

This is a tempest in a teapot in the grand scheme of things...

 

[Kilted]

I don't think that I will lose a lot of sleep over many of the changes, however, what's next? How much further are we going to go down this rabbit hole?

 

[Brad Sallows]

This is a bit of a stretch, I am going to have to say.

Not from my vantage point, over many years.

A long period during which people fought for, and won, increased privacy.

And now? "Hey, look at me!"

 

[btrudy]

The ability to work as a team presupposes the ability to not put "me" first. The baseline is that a person who doesn't intend to be dramatic doesn't start by doing dramatic things.

Here's a protip: wearing a skirt, having a pony tail, dying your hair... it's not dramatic. That's just them being themselves.

Drama is, well... your reaction to the notion of people doing those things.

On Sept 6, I'm gonna show up with purple hair, and guess what drama will ensue: literally none, unless some asshole decides to start some because they for some reason don't like it. That's on them, not on me. That'll be on you, when you whinge and rail about the notion that people might choose to look differently than you would choose to look.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I don't think that I will lose a lot of sleep over many of the changes, however, what's next? How much further are we going to go down this rabbit hole?

Too far for some, not far enough for others.

There are folks that want to see Messes shut down, parades cease to be a thing, and have us turn into people that show up to do a job at 8 and go home at 4.

There are others that want a return to conscription, 1950s norms and morals, and putting folks who aren't in a specific mold back in their place.

The dichotomy of it is that we are an organization with 157 years of history (more if we look at lineage etc.) that has evolved and shifted with every advancement in the society we represent and protect. In all of it, uniforms, dress, personal grooming, who we recruited, training methods, hell warfare in general all have changed and been adapted as needed.

This is a ripple in that timeline

 

[Kilted]

Too far for some, not far enough for others.

There are folks that want to see Messes shut down, parades cease to be a thing, and have us turn into people that show up to do a job at 8 and go home at 4.

There are others that want a return to conscription, 1950s norms and morals, and putting folks who aren't in a specific mold back in their place.

The dichotomy of it is that we are an organization with 157 years of history (more if we look at lineage etc.) that has evolved and shifted with every advancement in the society we represent and protect. In all of it, uniforms, dress, personal grooming, who we recruited, training methods, hell warfare in general all have changed and been adapted as needed.

This is a ripple in that timeline

It wouldn't surprise me if we see messes shut down, if for nothing other than for liability reasons. I'm sure that there are a couple of COs out there who would love to get rid of their messes. The whole 8-4 thing isn't realistic, but we also don't have to have people sitting around for the sake of being there. I know I'm coming at this from a Class A perspective, but I can't count the number of times that I've gone into the armoury for something that only took me 20 minutes to do, but then end up being there for hours for this and that, mostly because people don't plan things ahead of time, but that is another issue.

I think that conscription would do amazing things for this country, but hoping for it isn't realistic.

 

[Brad Sallows]

That'll be on you, when you whinge and rail about the notion that people might choose to look differently than you would choose to look.

I'm not tolerant; I'm indifferent. I don't care about oddness just in itself. I care about what it reveals about emotional stability, and thus suitability for employment. I can guess that somewhere on the spectrum from "tattoo and an earring" to "circus sideshow" there's a cutoff.

 

[btrudy]

I'm not tolerant; I'm indifferent. I don't care about oddness just in itself. I care about what it reveals about emotional stability, and thus suitability for employment. I can guess that somewhere on the spectrum from "tattoo and an earring" to "circus sideshow" there's a cutoff.

Hah I've known a hell of a lot of people in the CAF who were perfectly within the dress regs, and unstable as hell for various reasons. Frankly, I think the correlation you're thinking of is just in your head.

 

[Remius]

It's called a uniform for a reason. There were already mechanisms in place to allow people to pick which gender DEU they wore.

When someone is in uniform they are representing the Canadian Forces as a whole, uniforms are meant to make everyone look the same, not find new ways to express themselves.

And the uniform itself isn’t changing. We are changing the dress regs before we are doing it now and we’ll do it again. Everyone is still wearing a uniform.

Ever see a militia mixed unit parade. Not exactly « uniform » but everyone is still wearing one type or another.

 

[lenaitch]

Always an interesting, albeit rather pointless, discussion. Law enforcement, and probably most other emergency services, deal with similar issues. I realize things evolve but I've often wondered about one who would voluntarily joins an organization whose very ethos is collective effort, common goal, unity of command, etc. and then argue the importance of individuality.

Public agencies angst over this while private industry doesn't have to care. Try saying you're not into funny hats, certain colours or grooming rules and see how long that job at Tim's last. They don't have to couch them in safety or justify them; so long as they aren't discriminatory, private industry can simply hang its hat on the corporate image they wish to project.

I'd really have to see a legally sound discussion that convinces me that every single action, decision, voluntary quirk, want or fad is a Charter protected freedom of expression. I can find no reference that says the courts have ever ruled on whether matters of appearance or grooming are even covered under Section 2. To the contrary, one of the concepts they have ruled on is "expressive content", defined as "an activity or communication that conveys or attempts to convey meaning'. Hard to see how pink hair, nose studs or refusal to wear a hat is covered.

 

[Remius]

Why does hair colour matter? We have blond, black, brown, red, none, grey, mix. So why is pink specifically an issue? Or blue or whatever? It’s not like we force everyone to get a Lego jet black colour or everyone have shaved heads to avoid hair colour in the first place.

If we accept that people will have different hair colour ie not all the same then what does it matter what hair colour people choose to sport?

 

[PuckChaser]

Why does hair colour matter? We have blond, black, brown, red, none, grey, mix. So why is pink specifically an issue? Or blue or whatever?

We're in the military, is that honestly a serious question? You'd find nothing unprofessional about someone dying their hair like an actual rainbow clown wig? Or hot pink with neon green streaks?

Ultimately we're the face of the Government of Canada's foreign policy. If the Government wants our foreign policy to look like an absolute clown show because apparently someone thinks the were supposed to be born with purple and neon green hair, giddy'up.

 

[OldSolduer]

We're in the military, is that honestly a serious question? You'd find nothing unprofessional about someone dying their hair like an actual rainbow clown wig? Or hot pink with neon green streaks?

Ultimately we're the face of the Government of Canada's foreign policy. If the Government wants our foreign policy to look like an absolute clown show because apparently someone thinks the were supposed to be born with purple and neon green hair, giddy'up.

Perhaps fright wigs and clown shoes issued?

Joking

 

[mariomike]

Law enforcement, and probably most other emergency services, deal with similar issues.

Not being in enforcement, my view was 90% of our work was likeablity with the public.

They might not remember your technical skills. But, for sure they remembered your customer service skills.

A smile and a shoe shine went a long way.

Try saying you're not into funny hats, certain colours or grooming rules and see how long that job at Tim's last.

Or, Air Canada cabin crew.

 

[Remius]

We're in the military, is that honestly a serious question? You'd find nothing unprofessional about someone dying their hair like an actual rainbow clown wig? Or hot pink with neon green streaks?

Ultimately we're the face of the Government of Canada's foreign policy. If the Government wants our foreign policy to look like an absolute clown show because apparently someone thinks the were supposed to be born with purple and neon green hair, giddy'up.

The fact that some people think that we will suddenly have a whole army of that is a ridiculous position. Yes it’s a serious question. Your premise isn’t a serious one. The ones that do that sort of thing are generally not the ones that gravitate towards a military career anyways. These are the same tired arguments about pony tails, pig tails and beards.

Who cares what colour hair they have . As I said, it won’t fix our problems but it won’t make them any worse. We’ll have one offs here and there but you won’t be seing full units of that stuff. Like everything else it blows over once people realise no one cares. But you can bet if they (the odd rabble rouser) think it will upset you they will. So just don’t get upset. And they will quickly revert to the common denominator.

And yes we are in the military. One that adapts to the current times. Not sure why pink hair would keep anyone up at night.