New Guns for 1 RCHA...
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Great news for the gunners, and the infanteers you support 
If they can get them into service in time for TF 1-06 it may restore some of my lost faith in the military procurement system...
Will all 15 guns be deploying, I'm no gunner but I thought a battery usually consisted of approx 6 guns? Or are they beefing this one up?
If they can get them into service in time for TF 1-06 it may restore some of my lost faith in the military procurement system...Will all 15 guns be deploying, I'm no gunner but I thought a battery usually consisted of approx 6 guns? Or are they beefing this one up?
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Mike_R23A said:
The "new" RegF artillery structure has 4 gun batteries, increased FOO/FAC parties (etc.) and UAV operators. This was announced by the CLS this past summer.
The first 15 or so M777s will be bought (IIRC) as an IOR (Immediate Operational Requirement) - no need for the procurement police to get involved.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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What's old is new. Both the regs and the reserves used to use a towed 155mm back in the 60's. This new gun has already seen a fair bit of service and will help us interrelate with our allies.
For the reserves, the 155 is a bit of a logistical burden and the 105 C3 is a better piece of kit for them. It is tried and true and very robust. I seem to remember that we still have a bunch of the C2 still in storage.
For the one system only crowd, well then you are stuck with something that can not always perform the mission required. Much better to have a mix of systems.
105 gun for the reserves, 155 gun for the regs.
81mm mortar should have stayed with the infantry and the reg & reserves arty also would get 120mm mortars, towed for reserves and mounted for Regular forces.
Training a gunner from a 105 to 155 or a 81 to 120 would not be hard at all and take a week or so. If the gun/mortar is mounted, it will take longer as they will have to learn other tasks as well.
This mix would allow us to pick and choose the package that suits the mission best. Other than range I see no reason not to task the C3 overseas, the basic gun has seen more action than any of the other platforms.
For the reserves, the 155 is a bit of a logistical burden and the 105 C3 is a better piece of kit for them. It is tried and true and very robust. I seem to remember that we still have a bunch of the C2 still in storage.
For the one system only crowd, well then you are stuck with something that can not always perform the mission required. Much better to have a mix of systems.
105 gun for the reserves, 155 gun for the regs.
81mm mortar should have stayed with the infantry and the reg & reserves arty also would get 120mm mortars, towed for reserves and mounted for Regular forces.
Training a gunner from a 105 to 155 or a 81 to 120 would not be hard at all and take a week or so. If the gun/mortar is mounted, it will take longer as they will have to learn other tasks as well.
This mix would allow us to pick and choose the package that suits the mission best. Other than range I see no reason not to task the C3 overseas, the basic gun has seen more action than any of the other platforms.
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Just hoping to clarify a couple of things:
- there are only six M777 being purchased on the IOR. Any further purchases must be made through the regular procurement process. Further, the FIFC has determined that a mounted capability is the future for indirect fire in Canada. The M777 is the exception, for operational reasons.
- only four M777 will deploy to theatre.
- the M777 will not belong to any one battery or regiment. There will be four that will remain on operational use and two for training, likely at CTC.
- the new artillery structure as it will be at APS '07 will have six batteries with four guns each, three batteries of STA equipment and three HQ&Svcs batteries. There will be three regiments like this. The STA tasked batteries will have 2 troops of mini UAVs and one troop of weapon locating sensors (radar and/or sound ranging). None of the STA equipment is being purchased on UOR or IOR as we speak, so it will be six to seven years through normal procurement for the equipment to arrive for the STA batteries. Note that there is no mortar organisation in this structure. Mortars are being considered a residual "fall back" capability. In many ways they are more limited than guns, and the previous poster is indeed correct in that it does not take long to get up to speed on a mortar if one is already trained on a gun.
- the Excalibur round that is likely deploying with the M777 is a highly accurate round. It does, however, have some serious limitations. So do not expect it to be the panacea.
Personal gripe: with the reroling of mortars, and the realignment of the artillery to six batteries of four guns, we as the regular force component of our military have gone from 126 tubes that could be brought to bear to 24 (72 mortars and 54 guns). Considering that one of the key principles of effective indirect fire is massing, having only 8 tubes in a brigade to do that is a bit on the light side. Further, gun PYs had to be sacrificed to man the new STA positions. The army's direction towards the "big head, small body" model in accordance with the Force Employment Concept should have predicated the addition of these PYs to the Sense capability. Instead, there were no Sense additions and the majority of PYs went to Act in the form of infantry, a la "small head, fat body". I know my infanteer brothers need the boost, it just does not make sense to have the army emasculate one arm for the sake of another.
Thanks for listening
- there are only six M777 being purchased on the IOR. Any further purchases must be made through the regular procurement process. Further, the FIFC has determined that a mounted capability is the future for indirect fire in Canada. The M777 is the exception, for operational reasons.
- only four M777 will deploy to theatre.
- the M777 will not belong to any one battery or regiment. There will be four that will remain on operational use and two for training, likely at CTC.
- the new artillery structure as it will be at APS '07 will have six batteries with four guns each, three batteries of STA equipment and three HQ&Svcs batteries. There will be three regiments like this. The STA tasked batteries will have 2 troops of mini UAVs and one troop of weapon locating sensors (radar and/or sound ranging). None of the STA equipment is being purchased on UOR or IOR as we speak, so it will be six to seven years through normal procurement for the equipment to arrive for the STA batteries. Note that there is no mortar organisation in this structure. Mortars are being considered a residual "fall back" capability. In many ways they are more limited than guns, and the previous poster is indeed correct in that it does not take long to get up to speed on a mortar if one is already trained on a gun.
- the Excalibur round that is likely deploying with the M777 is a highly accurate round. It does, however, have some serious limitations. So do not expect it to be the panacea.
Personal gripe: with the reroling of mortars, and the realignment of the artillery to six batteries of four guns, we as the regular force component of our military have gone from 126 tubes that could be brought to bear to 24 (72 mortars and 54 guns). Considering that one of the key principles of effective indirect fire is massing, having only 8 tubes in a brigade to do that is a bit on the light side. Further, gun PYs had to be sacrificed to man the new STA positions. The army's direction towards the "big head, small body" model in accordance with the Force Employment Concept should have predicated the addition of these PYs to the Sense capability. Instead, there were no Sense additions and the majority of PYs went to Act in the form of infantry, a la "small head, fat body". I know my infanteer brothers need the boost, it just does not make sense to have the army emasculate one arm for the sake of another.
Thanks for listening
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Hmmm.... when was the last time a gunner managed to be in a position to influence our procurment? McNaughton? (JK)
Obviously, there are a lot of people out there that do not understand (or appreceate) the additional capacity to deal with problems that Guns bring to an equation....
More than likely someone believes that between the MGS and the ADATS, we've got it pretty much covered.
Sigh :'(
Obviously, there are a lot of people out there that do not understand (or appreceate) the additional capacity to deal with problems that Guns bring to an equation....
More than likely someone believes that between the MGS and the ADATS, we've got it pretty much covered.
Sigh :'(
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http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34
Successful Flight Test of GPS-guided Artillery Projectile Puts Raytheon-Bofors Excalibur Closer to Fielding
(Source: Raytheon Company; issued Sept. 26, 2005)
TUCSON, Ariz. --- Proving accuracy and lethality, the Raytheon Missile Systems-Bofors' Excalibur team fired a global positioning system (GPS)-guided 155mm artillery projectile, successfully engaging a representative target with devastating effects.
"The end-to-end test of the Excalibur system demonstrates that we have a weapon system ready for fielding," said Raytheon's Excalibur program director John Halvey.
"The Excalibur team has made a tremendous step forward toward meeting the objective of fielding by March 2006," said Lt. Col. Bill Cole, the U.S. Army's product manager for Excalibur at Picatinny Arsenal, N.J. "Excalibur has proven at the system level that it can meet its precision and lethality objectives."
The program is a cooperative effort between the United States and Sweden.
Currently the Excalibur team is responding to an urgent request from the warfighter to accelerate Excalibur fielding because of the projectile's better than 10-meter accuracy which is unavailable from any other artillery projectile. Soldiers and Marines will use Excalibur to reduce collateral damage and increase their survivability while efficiently accomplishing the mission.
The Excalibur projectile was fired from the Army's 155mm Paladin howitzer during the Sept. 15 test at Yuma Proving Ground, Ariz. The projectile was successfully set with an enhanced portable inductive artillery fuze setter (EPIAFS). The U.S. Army has adapted EPIAFS into a standalone fuze setter specifically for the urgent fielding requirement. The projectile's fuze was set to function above the target, resulting in an air burst which successfully disabled the light vehicles and produced lethal effects on the simulated personnel.
This test was preceded by Excalibur tests conducted on Sept. 1, when the Excalibur program achieved another success, firing two temperature conditioned projectiles from a Paladin howitzer using MACS-4 (modular artillery charge system) charges. Both rounds deployed their canards, acquired the GPS signal (the first live-fired rounds to utilize Direct Y GPS) and completed their pre- programmed navigational maneuvers.
This series of successful tests is paving the way for Raytheon to deliver this much needed capability to soldiers and Marines within the next six months. Excalibur will offer greater lethality, increased range and lower collateral damage, while greatly reducing the logistical burden for deployed ground forces.
Raytheon Company, with 2004 sales of $20.2 billion, is an industry leader in defense and government electronics, space, information technology, technical services, and business and special mission aircraft. With headquarters in Waltham, Mass., Raytheon employs 80,000 people worldwide.
-ends-
Only problem with these systems is predicting where the round will land when all the gee-whiz stuff fails.
Successful Flight Test of GPS-guided Artillery Projectile Puts Raytheon-Bofors Excalibur Closer to Fielding
(Source: Raytheon Company; issued Sept. 26, 2005)
TUCSON, Ariz. --- Proving accuracy and lethality, the Raytheon Missile Systems-Bofors' Excalibur team fired a global positioning system (GPS)-guided 155mm artillery projectile, successfully engaging a representative target with devastating effects.
"The end-to-end test of the Excalibur system demonstrates that we have a weapon system ready for fielding," said Raytheon's Excalibur program director John Halvey.
"The Excalibur team has made a tremendous step forward toward meeting the objective of fielding by March 2006," said Lt. Col. Bill Cole, the U.S. Army's product manager for Excalibur at Picatinny Arsenal, N.J. "Excalibur has proven at the system level that it can meet its precision and lethality objectives."
The program is a cooperative effort between the United States and Sweden.
Currently the Excalibur team is responding to an urgent request from the warfighter to accelerate Excalibur fielding because of the projectile's better than 10-meter accuracy which is unavailable from any other artillery projectile. Soldiers and Marines will use Excalibur to reduce collateral damage and increase their survivability while efficiently accomplishing the mission.
The Excalibur projectile was fired from the Army's 155mm Paladin howitzer during the Sept. 15 test at Yuma Proving Ground, Ariz. The projectile was successfully set with an enhanced portable inductive artillery fuze setter (EPIAFS). The U.S. Army has adapted EPIAFS into a standalone fuze setter specifically for the urgent fielding requirement. The projectile's fuze was set to function above the target, resulting in an air burst which successfully disabled the light vehicles and produced lethal effects on the simulated personnel.
This test was preceded by Excalibur tests conducted on Sept. 1, when the Excalibur program achieved another success, firing two temperature conditioned projectiles from a Paladin howitzer using MACS-4 (modular artillery charge system) charges. Both rounds deployed their canards, acquired the GPS signal (the first live-fired rounds to utilize Direct Y GPS) and completed their pre- programmed navigational maneuvers.
This series of successful tests is paving the way for Raytheon to deliver this much needed capability to soldiers and Marines within the next six months. Excalibur will offer greater lethality, increased range and lower collateral damage, while greatly reducing the logistical burden for deployed ground forces.
Raytheon Company, with 2004 sales of $20.2 billion, is an industry leader in defense and government electronics, space, information technology, technical services, and business and special mission aircraft. With headquarters in Waltham, Mass., Raytheon employs 80,000 people worldwide.
-ends-
Only problem with these systems is predicting where the round will land when all the gee-whiz stuff fails.
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Despite the potential for this be an even more ubiquitous than other artillery rounds it looks like the Yanks may be willing to put Excalibur into service soon.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34
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STA Gunner said:
As an infantryman, this bothers me. Not so much on the argument that mortars should be crewed by infantry or artillery, but from the standpoint that mortars are being pushed out of the TOE, training and employment capabilities. This will not have such an effect on the mechanized formations, but for the light community, this will have serious negative implications in terms of a man-portable indirect fire capability.
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Matt_Fisher said:
To expand upon your point, the mortar capability is being maintained, with a significant amount of the regimental training bill dedicated to maintaining the capability. If a mission comes up where mortars are the system that best suit the tasks, then mortars it shall be. It is just that at the moment, Afghanistan is not the place for mortars.
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STA Gunner said:
Just for my own personal confirmation, you are saying the regular force artillery is being reduced to just 24 tubes total, plus mortars as a mission fit? This reduces the arty down to what- less than 750 souls altogether even with bells and whistles?
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What Bomber has stated is entirely correct. But added to that:
- three new FOO parties per battery (including the STA Battery)
- increased battery FSCC size
- fully manned command post and recce positions.
The intent behind the 4 gun battery is that our reserve brothers can fulfill the remaining two guns our doctrine demands and the training delta is not that large. However, the training delta for a FOO, CP crew, FSCC or STA job will be a major obstacle to overcome.
- three new FOO parties per battery (including the STA Battery)
- increased battery FSCC size
- fully manned command post and recce positions.
The intent behind the 4 gun battery is that our reserve brothers can fulfill the remaining two guns our doctrine demands and the training delta is not that large. However, the training delta for a FOO, CP crew, FSCC or STA job will be a major obstacle to overcome.
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