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New IRP / Move policy-effective Dec 01, 2017 [Merged]

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jollyjacktar

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Of course its a fuck up and why the Chief questioned Brookfield to begin with.  He was just up here on IR and back home again.  We find it entertaining they're apparently so thick they can't figure it out for themselves.
 

Lumber

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I received this today:

In 1 week, the new Brookfield Relocation contract and system will come into effect (1 Dec). To summarize, this is what we have been made aware of to date concerning the new system

1. Members registering with BGRS until 27 Nov will be administered under the old system and their files will remain open for 1 year;
2. From 0800 – 2000 hrs you will have access to a BGRS representative;
3. All Benefits remain the same;
4. Member’s Skpe conference/teleconference with their BGRS representative will be recorded and they will have access to those online 24/7;
5. CAF will issue future T4’s for postings effective 1 Dec and beyond;
6. CAF members will log on to the system and complete their profile much like we currently do – the system will prompt the member who is relocating through the various steps of their relocation dependant on their personal circumstances (buying, renting);
7. BGRS will book flights for CAF members through HRG;
8. CAF members will pay all 3rd party providers (real estate, lawyers, Home inspectors, etc.) via a loaded cash card/visa;
9. An advance will be requested on the program and within 24hrs it will be loaded to their cash card/visa;
10. This cash card will not affect CAF members credit rating;
11. There will be a list of all 3rd party providers that members will be able to choose from much like we currently have;
12. CAF members will scan their receipts to BGRS however the original receipts will have to be kept for 7 years in the event of an audit;
13. It’s vital that CAF members read Know your Benefits in ref D and E below in addition to the Canadian Forces Integrated Relocation Program (CFIRP) and CBI Chapter 208 – Relocation Benefits; and
14. Posting allowance will be taxable and member’s will not be able to roll into RRSPs or buy down their mortgage rate;
15. Cash card/Visa will be provided by Berkley and member’s will have access to a 24/7 phone number for any potential problems.
16. When the member receives their posting message, they must register on the secure website and request the RELO card; it will be sent within 5 days

I'm sure a lot of people will be looking at the money/tax implications, but one of the concerns that was brought up that I have a question about is COS and RFD date.

The MHRRP (A-Pm-245) is the only source document that I can find that clearly states that a RFD greater (or less) than 30 days from COS must be staffed through the career manager.

My question is, why? And who would care if you ignored this. Obviously, if you're filling a key position, like ship's XO, Navigator, Chief Eng, etc, then a delay of more than 30 days could necessitate someone else being posted to the position so that the unit (ship) can actually get on with it's business. But if the ship is sitting in the ditch and doesn't really need a NavO, and because of personal circumstances (or delays by Brookfield), the new NavO is requesting an RFD that's  days from COS, then why not? If the gaining CO doesn't really need him, and the losing CO has no problem letting them kick-around the office for an extra 60 days, does it really need to go to the CM? We trust our COs to make much more critical decisions than "should I allow a change in this member's place of duty to his previous place of duty for 60 days?"

If you read the "challenges" and "consideration" (which I did not provide), it looks like DGCB and D Mil C are going to be encouraging exactly this. The new system with the RELO cards might make it difficult for members to keep there RFDs within the 30 days of COS (at least at first).
 

dapaterson

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The written policy is COs can auth a max of 30 days.


In practice, a reasonable pair of COs (gaining and losing) will be able to negotiate in the best interests of the member, the gaining and the losing unit and then inform the Career manager of the change.

An unreasonable career manager (refusing the agreement of the two COs) will likely then have his section head in D Mil C engaged by two pissed off COs.  And the problem (in the future) will be self correcting.

In an era of email communications I do not see this as an area of particular concern.


Re: point 14 on the list: Posting Allowance has always been taxable.  Rolling into RRSPs will still be possible, but will require the member to do so, not BGRS on their behalf.  Similarly, there may be the ability to buy down interest rates, but that will have to be done and paid by the member out of the PA they receive.

The benefit to removing Posting Allowance from BGRS is that pay increases should then be actionned automatically, and members should then receive a single CAF T4 (unless they are paid by both CCPS and RPSR in a single fiscal year...)
 

Lumber

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I'm curious about the relo card. How many third party providers are going to have issues being paid by a cash card? During my last move, most of the 3rd party providers paid just billed Brookfield directly, or took hard cash.
 

sidemount

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Lumber said:
I'm curious about the relo card. How many third party providers are going to have issues being paid by a cash card? During my last move, most of the 3rd party providers paid just billed Brookfield directly, or took hard cash.

I'm pretty sure on my last cost move the only thing we paid cash for were hotels and meals. All other providers billed Brookfield directly much like you.
 

Nfld Sapper

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Looks like this might be related:

CANFORGEN 200/17 CMP 103/17 061533Z NOV 17

RETROACTIVE ADJUSTMENT OF POSTING ALLOWANCE (RAPA)

UNCLASSIFIED


REF: CANFORGEN 101/17 CMP 051/17 021245Z JUN 17


1. THE REF ANNOUNCED A PAY RAISE FOR NCMS, GSO AND PILOTS IN THE RANK OF LCOL AND BELOW, AND FOR MEDICAL AND DENTAL OFFICERS. THIS WILL RESULT IN A RETROACTIVE ADJUSTMENT OF POSTING ALLOWANCE (RAPA) FOR MEMBERS WITH A CHANGE OF STRENGTH (COS) DATE AFTER 1 APR 14


2. THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO CLARIFY THE RAPA PROCESS FOR ALL AFFECTED CAF MEMBERS


3. CAF PERS WHO WERE RELOCATED BY BGRS WITH COS DATE AFTER 1 APR 14 MAY BE ENTITLED TO RAPA. RAPA FOR OFFICERS IN THE RANK OF COL/CAPT(N) AND ABOVE, AND LEGAL OFFICERS IN THE RANK OF LCOL AND ABOVE WILL BE ACTIONED AT A LATER DATE


4. ELIGIBLE MEMBERS WILL BE CONTACTED BY BGRS VIA EMAIL


5. RAPA WILL BE PROCESSED CENTRALLY BY BGRS. THE BGRS ADVISOR THAT WAS ASSIGNED TO YOUR RELOCATION FILE WILL NOT PROCESS THE RAPA. CAF MEMBERS ARE REQUESTED TO WAIT TO BE CONTACTED BY THE BGRS CENTRAL TEAM AND NOT DIRECT ANY COMMENTS OR CONCERNS TO THEIR LOCAL BGRS ADVISOR, IRP COORDINATOR, PAY OFFICE OR ORDERLY ROOM


6. WHILE THE GOAL IS TO INITIATE RAPA PAYMENTS IN 2017, THE VOLUME (IN EXCESS OF THIRTY THOUSAND CAF MEMBERS), MAY RESULT IN PAYMENTS IN 2018


7. DEDUCTIONS AT SOURCE WILL BE WITHHELD ON ALL RAPA PAYMENTS


8. AS THE RAPA IS A TAXABLE BENEFIT, A T4 AND A RELEVE 1, WHERE APPLICABLE, WILL BE ISSUED VIA THE BGRS SECURE WEBSITE
 

ballz

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From a tax perspective, the Personal Envelope (which includes the posting allowance, hence why I'm bringing it up) wasn't handled very well by Brookfield, IMO. And now, it's kind of worse, and Point #14 is written very poorly.

For any move that fits CRA's definition, there is a whole bunch of expenses that are deductible at tax time. The personalized envelope was meant to pay for those, and then anything left over is an economic benefit and therefore taxable. So, if your personalized envelope was 5000, and you had to pay a 2500 penalty to break/port your mortgage, then only 2500 was taxable because that 2500 was an economic benefit. If it was 5000, then nothing was taxable since there was no economic benefit. And if it was 10,000, then you could deduct the additional 5,000 come tax season since it fits the bill of an eligible moving expense.

In hindsight from my last move, had I known what they were doing, I would have claimed all the eligible expenses under my personalized envelope, and then had the remaining paid out. It makes tax season much easier to deal with since I wouldn't need to deduct things like "hotel upgrades" (the max rate for Kenora, ON, was like 105 dollars... the only thing I could find was 200+, for example... that's now ~100 deductible on my taxes).

What's really happening here is you are being paid out the full personalized envelope and the taxes are being deducted at source. So now you pay the full mortgage penalty up front, and can deduct it all in tax season. The dollar effect is technically no different, same thing as the RRSP (having deposited directly in an RRSP vs depositing it yourself), but now the member has to foot the bill until their tax return..... and how many are not going to realize just what they can claim on their taxes?
 

SupersonicMax

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Can you cash out the cash card and use your own credit card instead?  I really like acruing points...
 

McG

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NFLD Sapper said:
Looks like this might be related:
No.  That is something different.  It is retroactive changes to posting allowances based on the recent retroactive pay increase.

The stuff in this thread is about changes in how IRP will be administered going into the future.
 

Lumber

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SupersonicMax said:
Can you cash out the cash card and use your own credit card instead?  I really like acruing points...

I hear there's a bodega around the corner that'll exchange 'em for cash...
 

SupersonicMax

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Lumber said:
I hear there a bodega around the corner that'll exchange 'em for cash...

I have to say, I don't understand the reasoning for the card, other than the government saving a few bucks on ATM fees and bank fees when exchanging currencies...

Why not just advance the money to the members (like it is already done)?
 

SupersonicMax

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dapaterson said:
Simpler and less expensive, presumably.

We still need to do the claim process, we are stuck with one more card, I don't see how it is simpler for the member.  Advance and claims into my bank account directly are far simpler for most...
 

exgunnertdo

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As someone currently on an OUTCAN, I don't see the cash card working for us, I don't believe they can issue something like that in Canada that will be compatible here. We will need to use our own credit card/cash when we leave here in 2020. We can use the cash card on the HHT back to Canada, but for expenses here it won't work. It will be worse for people moving here - they'll have an HHT with no cash card (hotel, meals, rental, rental search agent), then several weeks in a hotel here waiting for their furniture (we were 4 weeks in a hotel), rental car waiting for the POMV to arrive (6 weeks for us), before the HHT claim is settled (our HHT claim was settled after we arrived here, same for the other families that arrived this APS). That's a ton of money to expect the member to cover on their own with no advance. OUTCAN moves take forever to settle - we received our HG&E mid August, our claim wasn't settled until mid November. Without a big advance, we'd have been paying 2 months interest on a big balance on our credit card.

So it sounds like anything that comes out of personalized, we'd have to fund those out of our own pockets (ie not on the cash card), then the payout of the personalized funds will come on our pay later? Or will it be possible to advance on the posting allowance/personalized envelope? We used our personalized funds for two big items - extended HHT and pet shipment, both a much bigger factor in an OUTCAN move.

Put those two things together, posting season will be tight on the credit card/bank account for families going or coming from OUTCAN.
 

JesseWZ

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dapaterson said:
Simpler and less expensive, presumably.

When has anything to do with pay and benefits been changed so the net effect ended up being "simpler and less expensive..."

*cough* Phoenix *cough*
 

Eye In The Sky

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ballz said:
What's really happening here is you are being paid out the full personalized envelope and the taxes are being deducted at source. So now you pay the full mortgage penalty up front, and can deduct it all in tax season. The dollar effect is technically no different, same thing as the RRSP (having deposited directly in an RRSP vs depositing it yourself), but now the member has to foot the bill until their tax return..... and how many are not going to realize just what they can claim on their taxes?

Maybe it's early so I am not following...but the last time I was posted I had my Posting Allowance deposited directly into our spousal RRSP, so no tax deducted at source.  Now, I will get the PA minus taxes (somewhere around 50% would have been deducted if I had of taken it in cash)...how exactly am I still able to put my entire PA into a spousal RRSP if I only get half of it to start with.

???
 

kev994

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JesseWZ said:
When has anything to do with pay and benefits been changed so the net effect ended up being "simpler and less expensive..."

*cough* Phoenix *cough*
Simpler and less expensive for BGRS. I don’t think anyone is concerned with the member.
 

exgunnertdo

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Eye In The Sky said:
Maybe it's early so I am not following...but the last time I was posted I had my Posting Allowance deposited directly into our spousal RRSP, so no tax deducted at source.  Now, I will get the PA minus taxes (somewhere around 50% would have been deducted if I had of taken it in cash)...how exactly am I still able to put my entire PA into a spousal RRSP if I only get half of it to start with.

???

I guess...if your PA is $5000, they take $2.5K in tax, you can still put $5k into your RRSP, funding the $2.5K taken for tax out of your own resources (LOC?) then get the tax back, pay off the LOC? Cause that's easy, right? [/sarcasm]

PITA...stuff like this makes it seem like they think we have a pot of money just sitting to be used to bridge finance these things.

As it is, we tried to roll ours into our Questrade self directed RRSP. BGRS had a conniption. They didn't understand. They wanted paperwork from Questrade that Questrade didn't know how to provide, BGRS was only used to dealing with banks and finance companies. We almost had to do what I outlined above, but eventually BGRS managed to get it sorted and move the money to Questrade.
 

Eye In The Sky

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exgunnertdo said:
I guess...if your PA is $5000, they take $2.5K in tax, you can still put $5k into your RRSP, funding the $2.5K taken for tax out of your own resources (LOC?) then get the tax back, pay off the LOC? Cause that's easy, right? [/sarcasm]

:eek:rly:

I guess, to me at least, the real questions are (1) who authorized them to move away from doing this and (2) WHY.
 

Lkjhgfdsa

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exgunnertdo said:
As someone currently on an OUTCAN, I don't see the cash card working for us, I don't believe they can issue something like that in Canada that will be compatible here. We will need to use our own credit card/cash when we leave here in 2020. We can use the cash card on the HHT back to Canada, but for expenses here it won't work. It will be worse for people moving here - they'll have an HHT with no cash card (hotel, meals, rental, rental search agent), then several weeks in a hotel here waiting for their furniture (we were 4 weeks in a hotel), rental car waiting for the POMV to arrive (6 weeks for us), before the HHT claim is settled (our HHT claim was settled after we arrived here, same for the other families that arrived this APS). That's a ton of money to expect the member to cover on their own with no advance. OUTCAN moves take forever to settle - we received our HG&E mid August, our claim wasn't settled until mid November. Without a big advance, we'd have been paying 2 months interest on a big balance on our credit card.

So it sounds like anything that comes out of personalized, we'd have to fund those out of our own pockets (ie not on the cash card), then the payout of the personalized funds will come on our pay later? Or will it be possible to advance on the posting allowance/personalized envelope? We used our personalized funds for two big items - extended HHT and pet shipment, both a much bigger factor in an OUTCAN move.

Put those two things together, posting season will be tight on the credit card/bank account for families going or coming from OUTCAN.
The new chip cards will be accepted everywhere a MasterCard is accepted. Currency rates are accurate and the security is there too.

https://www.bmo.com/main/personal/bank-accounts/banking-services/debit-mastercard-faqs




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