New PT Test Requirements...Thoughts?

[Pea]

The way I look at it is, if I didn't have the desired education/skills when I applied for my current employment I wouldn't have even been given an interview. They wouldn't give me a job I don't meet the minimum standards for in hopes I could later meet them. So why should the CF do this?

 

[Blackadder1916]

Interesting thread.  People sure get worked up easily.  What started as a discussion concerning a change in 'enrolment procedure/basic training' seems to have evolved into gripes from some that they should be able to join and serve without meeting an existing standard.  If I may, I would like to add comments that (IMO) have more to do with the original intent of this thread.

To add some perspective, pre-enrolment fitness testing was a 'relatively' new idea.  Well, it's 'relatively new' to me.  When I joined the CF, thirty years ago, you were not fitness tested before going to Cornwallis (ou St-Jean pour les gens qui parle francais).  I believe that practise may have started somewhere in the mid to late 80's (or even the early 90's).  Like many of these initiatives, the goal was to reduce costs.  If you could ensure that prospective members already met a minimum fitness standard then there would (probably) be less requirement for remedial training, less incidence of injuries during training and fewer releases.

The focus has now changed.  Now Canada needs more soldiers and is prepared to accept additional training costs to get them.

Thirty years ago, (and probably thirty years before that) recruits were fitness tested early in their course and at regular intervals during recruit school.  The testing, of course, was different in those days.  Those who did not meet a minimum standard were slated for remedial training, usually evenings and weekends which was in addition to the regular PT.  IIRC, few on my course in Cornwallis (of approximately 100 pers) actually had to do remedial PT.  There were many more who had to go to remedial swimming, mostly the Newfies (I think about six out of the ten/twelve).  If someone didn't pass the final PT test (a rare case), then depending on a lot of factors they were either re-coursed or punted.  When I went to BOTC later, the PT testing was much the same, but I don't remember any formal remedial PT; the candidates were expected to help their less capable course mates improve.  You were expected to show, well, leadership.  Are people (particularly those who will gravitate towards military service) that much more out of shape these days?  If they are, then it becomes even more important that we get them young and train them right (as an aside, I have an ex-wife who held the same viewpoint with regards to another physical activity).  Fitness training didn't (and should not) stop after basic, though it may not be the same for everyone.

As for the changed policy (or should it read 'changed back to what it was for a hundred or so years), there probably won't be a stampede of morbidly obese, unmotivated individuals squeezing themselves through the doors of CFRCs across the country because they are drooling at the prospect of going to basic training for 90 days with visions of sitting on their wide posteriors and eating cake in the mess hall.  Hopefully, the revised policy will make the enrolment process quicker. The result will be that the same sort of individual who has joined the Canadian Army, Navy and Air Force for over a hundred years gets in quicker.  It will not result in a sudden and widespread relaxing of fitness standards in the CF.  

 

[Teflon]

I still don't think a holding platoon to get in shape is a bad idea.

Many trg schools already have them,... they are called PAT PLs (Pers Awaiting Trg) and they consist of pers how having completed enrollment (including the minimum PT standard) and have either failed some aspect of training or are injured during training.  having these Pls you speak of where? Every recruiting center? We are already short pers in many units so why not steal several hundred more to run these Pls of people that might not ever achieve the minimum standard?

 

[orange.paint]

We are already short pers in many units so why not steal several hundred more to run these Pls of people that might not ever achieve the minimum standard?

My point I brought up earlier.I think another thing that bothers me is the army has came up with the creative name of "warrior platoon".Why not call it what it is FMS (failed to meet standard) sort of like PAT.

It sort of like calling being kicked out for drugs "the freebird program" instead of release.

Im curious as to what the training plan looks like for them.PSP will obviously be organising it.Whats next?Buses driving around with signs get in free uniforms and trip to Afganistan?I think we are a little desperate for numbers now,but will be kicking ourselfs in a few years down the road.

 

[orange.paint]

Boy oh boy......
1)   The fact that someone has to do the step test instead of the shuttle run would be that he has a problem with the knees or one with the ole ticker.....
2)   Durint the step test, the PSP type will take your blood pressure on an ongoing basis.... if you go over 141... they stop the test (note that on the shuttle run your BP can go to the moon and back as long as you're still standing)
AND (here's the kicker)
3)   At the conclusion of the step test, they manualy calculate your VO2 capacity.  If you are over the weight the CF Med types say you should be at for your height, then you fail... even if you are all "torked up" with no fat ....

You're going to have to do better than that Brixxie

1) not nesecarrly.I did the step test in St.Johns newfoundland instead of the beep test.I was skinny and 17 in good shape.
3)Are you sure on that one?I've never heard of them using the "BMI" as anything more than a tool now.Before I was in I was told they used the BMI,but its a flawed system that they banished.They do however use it as a tool on their webpage.

cheers

 

[17thRecceSgt]

From a strictly military aspect, by current serving memebers, maybe this looks stupid.

To the people who count beans and bullets and study and critique our "risk assessments", "business cases" and "business plans", this probably looks very feasible and fiscally responsible.

For most of us, our duty is to "do the business".

For other, even some of our brothers and sisters in uniform, their job is "to run the business".

Someone, somewhere "business cased" this, and probably came back with the idea to recruit like this.  Why?  Because, in theory, the CF will keep more of the people that go into the 30/60/90 day program if they DON'T pass the EXRPES test than they will loose.  I can't fathom what statistics and charts and reports would tell them this, nor do I need to really.  I should be focused on MY part in this big machine, much like they are focused on this "risk assessment" and "business casing" that they are, or should be, the SMEs in.  I don't understand why they do it the way they do it, but I refer to my comment earlier about flyin' and comments to pilots.

Maybe just a case of not understanding the reason for this, but accepting it, continueing to ***** and moan about it, but ready to step off with the plan on behalf of our Superiors when we get the word of command "QUICK......MARCH!".  Ready to step off.  

So lets ***** and moan, BUT...anticipate the word of command folks.

Cause I don't see Uncle Rick on here bitching with us, so someone smarter 'n us convinced him this would work.

I try to have faith in my leadership.  That they will make the right decisions...even if they don't seem like the BEST decisions.

So, in closing, I would like to thank you all for your time and your warm welcome here tonight.  There will be a reception in the "Loyalty Room" shortly following tonights events.  Thank you.    

 

[geo]

1) not nesecarrly.I did the step test in St.Johns newfoundland instead of the beep test.I was skinny and 17 in good shape.
3)Are you sure on that one?I've never heard of them using the "BMI" as anything more than a tool now.Before I was in I was told they used the BMI,but its a flawed system that they banished.They do however use it as a tool on their webpage.
cheers

who said anything about BMI..... I said VO2

 

[Crimson]

I am in the application process currently. I was told that I would not be given a PT test until I am already at BMQ. I'm not suggesting that I am going to fail but as devil's advocate here, I wasn't given the option of finding out if the training I've declared on my application is actually going to be good enough to count during my test.

I *believe* that I'm up to the minimum standards for entering the CF. Belief is not the same as being tested and knowing.

If I had been given the option and found out that my form was off or that while I could run the 2.4 in the time allotted except that my VO2 max was still not in the acceptable range, then I could have re-tested at a later date PRIOR to my enrollment.

Without the option of testing before enrollment I think it's fair to say that if someone is close enough to passing with some remedial PT then train them up. If they are way off then send them home and let them train on their own dime.

Beyond that, I don't know of anyone (personally) who ever said that they only intend to maintain the minimum entry level of fitness. entry level is just that. Personally, I'm shooting for athlete level regardless of what my trained and active soldier expectations are or what MOC I train into.

I was just sharing a few thoughts...

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Crimson,

Its not a bad thing to see the perspective, put the way you have here, from the young soldiers that will be part of this new...plan. 

Good luck with your application!  Give em H E double hockey sticks!

MRM

 

[orange.paint]

Sorry Geo
BFT
Duty NCO
21km run
2nd day back to work after 10 weeks
those are my excuses!

Understood.


Crimson:
Don't worry too much about the test.As we have alluded to many times here so far its quite simple.Anyone who is remotely fit will pass.I never done a Push up in my life I don't think,or ran more than the police was willing to chase me prior to joining the army.(I wasn't a bad kid,we just liked drinking....rural NFLD not much else to do!)And I found PT easy.It ain't hard,don't stress just prepare yourself accordingly.I basically went and tried the run and everything once I got my recruitment package pamphlet explaining what was required of me.If you can run the 2.4 your vo2 max will be fine IMHO.


Close enough to pass?I always love the analogy of the 50%pilot.Would you feel safe after a perfect takeoff and the pilot has always messed up landings?The minimum pass is not on.It endangers life's,in this case life's of our troops.

 

[geo]

like I said before, they don't calculate your VO2 when you do the Shuttle run
they do calculate VO2 when you do the stairs..... go figure

Your BP cannot exceed 141 at any time while doing the stairs.
Your BP can exceed 200 (if you can survive) while doing shuttle run.

 

[CF_Smith]

I just Passed my Aptitude test and now i have to take a medical and and a physcial test. Im not worried about my medical but im not In shape for my Physcial. its not like im fat, But im kinda skinny, Im 6'3 and 161 pounds. I can  only do like13 or 14 Good Military pushups but the sheet i  got said i you have to do

27 Push ups
41 Crunches In 1 minuite
10 Chin ups.

Im not worried about the Crunches the Chin ups and the push ups concern me, I recently started working out so i could meet the Requirments. My question is do you think that the Recruiter will give me time to Try and get in shape?

 

[marlene]

On reading all the posts regarding the new PT test requirements, I can't help but think of the total lack of any kind of PT requirements for CIC's.  It's a real sore point with me. In this day and age of increasing obesity in kids and their non-participation in any kind of physical activity, I think it's vital that an example be set for the kids by those teaching them and/or in leadership positions and it's not happening. 

I suspect I'm pulling a no no here and this should be a thread in the cadets section but it seemed like an appropriate place to begin anyway.

Marlene

 

[orange.paint]

My other question is how concrete is this?Basically I haven't heard or seen anything official on it except on this site.I know kincannucks has inside info,anything official to dispurse to the masses?

 

[geo]

On reading all the posts regarding the new PT test requirements, I can't help but think of the total lack of any kind of PT requirements for CIC's.  It's a real sore point with me. In this day and age of increasing obesity in kids and their non-participation in any kind of physical activity, I think it's vital that an example be set for the kids by those teaching them and/or in leadership positions and it's not happening. 
I suspect I'm pulling a no no here and this should be a thread in the cadets section but it seemed like an appropriate place to begin anyway.
Marlene

Marlene,
There are neither PT standards nor are there any Medical standards for CIC & CI types.
I have a couple of Cadet CIC officers who have gotten the CF to pay them throughout the year as they nurse "blown" knee caps from the summer training.
Aug thru Jan = medical compensation
Feb thru May = EI
Jun thru Aug = Cadet summer camps
Aug thru Jan = medical compensation
etc
etc
etc

because there is no medical standard...... there is no way to stop it .... ever

 

[keaner]

....my two cents...

I'm ex Reg and looking to get back in to the Reserves. I called the Recruiting station today to ask about what physical testing I would have to do and was told push-ups, sit-ups and Xpress test...that's it. Once you get to basic you do the 2.4km run. I asked if that was because of my previous service and was told no...it's across the board.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

....my two cents...

I'm ex Reg and looking to get back in to the Reserves. I called the Recruiting station today to ask about what physical testing I would have to do and was told push-ups, sit-ups and Xpress test...that's it. Once you get to basic you do the 2.4km run. I asked if that was because of my previous service and was told no...it's across the board.

Situps and pushups are part of the EXRPES test.  Not seperate from...

 

[moclyke]

I was told yesterday the physical would be done in BMQ, i dont know why I was relieved I knew I was ready but the Physical was the only test that worried me. To not realize your dream because you fell short on testing day is a scary factor. I think the army realized that in order to recruit more people they need to lessen the standards. However I will not use the "warrior" platoon as any kind of crutch. I don't want my friends and family to know I joined the army when they were letting "anybody" in. My recruiter has told me that no one wants to stay in Saint-Jean longer than they have to. To be put into a platoon when the rest of your comrades came prepared is embarassing and makes you look less dedicated. So when the testing comes through I WILL BE READY!!!!!!! 

 

[luciano]

My other question is how concrete is this?Basically I haven't heard or seen anything official on it except on this site.I know kincannucks has inside info,anything official to dispurse to the masses?

I was wondering this myself. I did a little searching on the new CF website about the recruitment process and it is missing a fitness aspect in the joining steps.

Summary of the steps to join the Canadian Forces:

  1. Make sure that you meet the basic eligibility requirements
  2. Apply online, in person or by mail
  3. If pre-selected, you will be submitted to the electronic Canadian Forces Aptitude Test
  4. You will be submitted to a thorough medical examination
  5. An Enhanced Reliability Check will be conducted
  6. You will be interviewed by a career counsellor
  7. If a selection offer is made and accepted, there will be an enrolment ceremony to welcome you in the military family.

    Note: The Canadian Forces Applicant Physical Fitness Test is eliminated from the selection process for the Regular Force effective October 1, 2006. The Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School will be responsible for assessing physical fitness and will implement a program to assist new enrolees to each an acceptable level of physical fitness prior to commencing basic training. Until further notice, the test will remain in the selection process for Reserve applicants. The Guide to physical fitness remains available for applicants wishing to self-evaluate and increase their physical fitness level.

http://forces.ca/v3/engraph/resources/howtojoin_en.aspx

So does that mean BMQ courses starting after Oct. 1st follow this new process even if they had a fitness test during enrollment, or is this starting for new recruits just starting the process after Oct. 1?

 

[govenor_mac]

Well, heres mama ranting once again. When my son didn't pass the running test fourth day into basic (back in April) it was almost the end of the world to him.He was so disgusted,disappointed,angry, etc.with himself for not taking the PT serious enough. He has since then applied to VR,changed his mind and took the five weeks Remedial Training.He is 6'3. He went from a 46 waist to a 38 in five months.He is built like a brick wall. He has been physical fit since and eating healthier.His self esteem has soared not only on accomplishing his weight loss and becomming fit but fullfilling his dream of becoming a CF member in good form.He is now into his fourth week of Basic and just loving it. I just want new recruits entering the CF to be sure they are fit and not go through the hell emotionally he went through.He spent six months in Pat Platoon waiting for Basic to begin and it is all in what you make of it yes,but to him hell would be a better place.