New Training Methods?

[Lost_Warrior]

I was just wondering if anyone had any information on whether or not the CF Recruit training methods were in the process of any sort of change considering our current combat environment.  A friend of mine just finished his SQ up in Val and they were still digging holes simulating a defensive position awaiting the Soviet onslaught.  He mentioned that one of his instructors was off a tour in Afghanistan and how much of his work up training for his tour was much different compared to what they were teaching, and that the course material was apparently going to be changing soon.

I don't have any more info than that and neither did he so instead of feeding the rumor mill I figured I would ask here if anyone had any information as to the validity of this claim, and if so, what type of new training procedures would be incorporated (ignore that request if it in any way violates OPSEC).

Thanks.

 

[foerestedwarrior]

Courses are always under reveiw and change. Learning how to work in a defensive position IMO is still valid training. You never know when you will need to know how to dig a trench.

 

[vonGarvin]

Just because we aren't digging trenches in A'stan doesn't mean that its merit is lost.  Also, SQ and other forms of individual training are used just for that: basic soldier skills.  As an analogy, look at the old Infantry Section Commander Course.  It was all dismounted, even when the only non-mechanised (regular) infantry battalion was The Canadian Airborne Regiment.  And the section attacks conducted were all solo, vs the so-called "lone rifleman".  This in an era when we were readying ourselves for mass mechanised warfare on the plains of Europe.  Didn't seem very relevant, but (a) it is a trianing tool and (b) whether it's a brigade attack or a platoon attack, the soldier skills at the section level are the same.

 

[Lost_Warrior]

True, digging a ditch is still a valid soldier skill, but I was wondering if they were in the process of incorporating the 3 Block War training method into recruit training.

 

[Franko]

I really don't see the need at that stage in a recruits career.

They're having a hard enough time learning the basics, never mind thinking about 3 block war.

SQ is a building block and nothing more. By the time they have completed it they have a somewhat tentative grasp on basic soldiering skills and a firm base for building on.

In later courses they will be taught what needs to be covered.....especially prior to going on tour.

These troops need to learn how to walk before going into a full sprint with FFO....and some are pretty weak during SQ. Throwing 3 Block War at them at that stage would be counter productive at best.

Having them try to think outside the box when they don't even know that there is one is a recipe for failure.

The bigger thing is that these recruits have got to realise is that they are just beginning and are at best competent at the basic skills when completed the SQ course.

Are they ready for a tour at the end of the course?

IMO......helllllssss no. Not even close.

Regards

 

[GAP]

If they think digging trenches are out of date, have them look up the history of Khe San. I love trenches!!. There were no strolls around with up to 1200 incoming rounds a day. Any one of the FOB's could be in a similar situation until air power arrived on station.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

We had trenches in our FOB, slept in ours a few nights, thinkin " isn't this ironic i am finally actually in a trench on a operation"

 

[Centurian1985]

Just because we aren't digging trenches in A'stan doesn't mean that its merit is lost.  Also, SQ and other forms of individual training are used just for that: basic soldier skills.  As an analogy, look at the old Infantry Section Commander Course.  It was all dismounted, even when the only non-mechanised (regular) infantry battalion was The Canadian Airborne Regiment.  And the section attacks conducted were all solo, vs the so-called "lone rifleman".  This in an era when we were readying ourselves for mass mechanised warfare on the plains of Europe.  Didn't seem very relevant, but (a) it is a training tool and (b) whether it's a brigade attack or a platoon attack, the soldier skills at the section level are the same.

Digging holes (as an example) may not appear applicable, but does have several benefits.  Those already named include:
- its a basic skill; even if its not used on this mission, it will still be used in others.
- its part of some land warfare concepts that still see a Canadian unit in a defensive position against a large-scale enemy attack.

But it also has several other purposes:
- its a way to get recruits to build muscle and increase their fitness, endurance, and stamina (cheaper than fitness equipment and has measurable results! You can fake 50 presses if you aren't being observed but you cant fake digging six feet of dirt!).
- it gets soldiers accustomed to performing hard work.
- it gets soldiers accustomed to performing actions that may not make sense or seem pointless (from the soldiers point of view).
- it makes the soldiers tired and tests their ability to perform other tasks while being physically tired from a previous task. 
- finally, it gives a frame of reference that makes many other tasks seem a hell of a lot better..  (i.e. Soldier 1 "why are we doing this? This is stupid!"  Soldier 2 "At least we aren't digging trenches!")

 

[Zertz]

My Res SQ did this: Trenches and conventional warfare at the FOB with one platoon, while the other platoon remained at Camp performing gate duty, vehicle checkpoint, presence patrols, and basic shoot house. Switch every 18 hours. I personally found it was extremely crammed in- the instructors agreed. The course wasn't long enough to add such content.

 

[GAP]

Digging holes (as an example) may not appear applicable, but does have several benefits.  Those already named include:
- its a basic skill; even if its not used on this mission, it will still be used in others.

Did you not see this ?

Posted on: Today at 12:49:24Posted by: silentbutdeadly! 
We had trenches in our FOB, slept in ours a few nights, thinkin " isn't this ironic i am finally actually in a trench 

 

[HItorMiss]

Silent and many other members on this site well know the use of trench's on operations, It's a basic skill that a soldier will use throughout his militarycareer at home and overseas.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Course content is reviewed in the light of recent operational experience.

The bag still only holds five pounds, even when we want to stuff ten pounds into it.

If it were up to me, cut out lots of drill and put in more weapons training (C7 till the cows come home).  Don't worry, its not up to me.  I wouldn't "3 Block War" everything, but there is nothing wrong with making the training scenario Afghan-like at any level.  In fact, it should be.

Trenches and sangars should still be taught.  It doesn't happen all the time, but you will still "dig-in."

 

[McG]

Trenches and sangars should still be taught. 

Combat teams, tank-infantry cooperation, and assaulting prepared positions should still be taught.  People like to write all of these off, but they develop basic skills that will eventually be required. 

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Roger that.

To go back to something written earlier Sometimes you might just be a section or platoon tasked with taking out a lone enemy or a small group.  Who knew?  Heck, you might have a company with the same task backed up by all sorts of support.

Tank infantry cooperation and the employment of artillery and other supporting arms must still occur.  Maybe just make the enemy and terrain more "Afghan-like" instead of "Soviet-like." 

To come back to recruit/DP1 training, I'd like to focus on fitness and C7 weapons handling.  Get those two right and the rest will follow.

 

[dglad]

As others have already so eloquently stated, digging a defensive position is a skill with very practical value on current ops.  So, for that matter, is basic field craft, movement skills, cam and concealment, navigation, how to look after your body during extended periods in the field, etc.  These skills are the basic building-blocks of an effective fighting soldier.  The specific stuff can get added on to this foundation as needed.

And, we have no guarantee whatsoever that those skills that tend to get "sniffed at" these days (i.e. preparing to face large opposing mechanised forces in a mid-high intensity scenario) aren't going to be needed at some point.  Yes, we need to understand Full Spectrum Ops in the "3 block war" sense, but just because our ops on this particular day are in the low-mid intensity environment does NOT mean it will always be that way.  Again, basic soldier skills are ALWAYS essential.  In DP1, these should be the focus...I can't disagree with C7 and fitness, and would add that these, basic offensive and defensive ops, together with things as simple as field hygiene, should be the focus.

 

[McG]

Tank infantry cooperation and the employment of artillery and other supporting arms must still occur.  Maybe just make the enemy and terrain more "Afghan-like" instead of "Soviet-like." 

I think we should do variety in the basic training.  It produces a broader back-ground of experience that is more likely to be transferable to current and future enemies.  At the same time, we should go very specific for collective pre-deployment work-up & validation training.

 

[McG]

These skills are the basic building-blocks of an effective fighting soldier.  The specific stuff can get added on to this foundation as needed.

... just because our ops on this particular day are in the low-mid intensity environment does NOT mean it will always be that way.  Again, basic soldier skills are ALWAYS essential. 

Exactly.  Snakes today and maybe a new bear tomorrow.

 

[paracowboy]

Snakes today and maybe a new bear tomorrow.

or a dragon?

Basic ain't broke. All it needs is higher Standards enforced - INCLUDING Drill, Dress, and Deportment. These have served the same purpose since they began in Bronze Age Greece. They turn civilians into soldiers. Nobody hates Drill more than me, nobody has worse deportment, and my Dress Standards have actually broken the Will of several MWOs. But, they are required in Basic and Battle School.

 

[a_majoor]

And, we have no guarantee whatsoever that those skills that tend to get "sniffed at" these days (i.e. preparing to face large opposing mechanised forces in a mid-high intensity scenario) aren't going to be needed at some point.  Yes, we need to understand Full Spectrum Ops in the "3 block war" sense, but just because our ops on this particular day are in the low-mid intensity environment does NOT mean it will always be that way.  

Indeed, things could have gone south pretty badly in many deployments. The Greek Cypriot Army was taking delivery of new AMX-30 tanks when I was there oh so long ago; perhaps someone might have gotten a bit overconfident during the semi annual face offs when facing Turkish M-48's? I recall reading in Somalia that one warlord had a tank park with T-55's, what if he had managed to salvage even a few as runners? The Ethiopians and Eterians had access to all the tools of a mechanized fighting force, including small numbers of helicopters and aircraft, Former Yugoslavia had thousands of pieces of military hardware squirred away in odd places (remind me to tell you about the "secret airbase" some time), and even Afghan warlords can tool around in Soviet vintage tanks (The American plan in Operation Anaconda in the Sha i kot valley actually featured a friendly warlord taking tanks into the valley. The reality was a bit different, but the possibility was there).

Of course we might not just be facing vintage military equipment, the Iranians can manufacture limited amounts of modern military hardware, and the Dragon might come on board during some future deployment to protect their natural resource interests (Invade the Sudan, and see how the Chinese react to poking a stick into thier commercial interests).

Basic ain't broke. All it needs is higher Standards enforced - INCLUDING Drill, Dress, and Deportment. These have served the same purpose since they began in Bronze Age Greece. They turn civilians into soldiers. Nobody hates Drill more than me, nobody has worse deportment, and my Dress Standards have actually broken the Will of several MWOs. But, they are required in Basic and Battle School.

Parading naked isn't an option, Para, but +1 to the rest.

 

[dglad]

Former Yugoslavia had thousands of pieces of military hardware squirred away in odd places (remind me to tell you about the "secret airbase" some time)

The one near Bihac, that's like something a James Bond supervillain might have built?