No more rifles on drill/grad parade?

[Remius]

Drill on basic is a building block. Both for the troops and leadership conducting it. We choose and use that building block for a variety of reasons.

Again, if you think drill on basic training is a retention issue you don’t understand what the real retention issues are.

 

[GR66]

I posted this further up in the forum

And how many of the mobilized Ukrainian reservists holding the lines at Bakhmut do you think are hitting the parade square daily?

Don't get me wrong, I think that discipline, uniformity in pursuit of encouraging group cohesiveness and a professional appearance to instill both pride and inspire confidence in the public/our allies are all good things. However, there seems to be a bit of a "the sky is falling" air around some of the responses to things like the dropping of rifle drill and what specific style of clothing is worn on a person's head.

I'd suggest this might be more due to the CAF as an organization losing a strong, clear and unified sense of purpose which in turn may result in some members losing a strong, clear and unified sense of purpose. I'd be willing to bet that if the GOC and CAF were able to communicate and demonstrate a clear sense of direction you'd see that reflected in members and recruits and lots of these debates about "symbolic" and "traditional" issues would be replaced with debates about operational issues.

$.02

 

[Weinie]

This has turned into a discussion about apples and aircraft carriers. Your opinion on anything within/outside this topic (plus a tooney) will get you a Timmies double/double across Canada.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Clear and valid reasons like the fact that we're hemorrhaging people and that maintaining the the status quo will lead to a complete inability for us to do any aspect of our core mandate?

The criticism is meaningless without breaking down causes and numbers. People leaving because they're dissatisfied with the slow political strangulation of the forces can't be counted with those leaving because they aren't allowed to dye their hair.

 

[btrudy]

As a point, when an infantry platoon attacks its as a formation - controlled chaos actually BUT the Pl Comd has his Battle DRILLS firmly implanted in his mind as does his 2I/C and his section commanders and his troops. THAT attack started on a parade square by doing foot drill and weapons drill.

I believe we're now getting into tautological arguments here. Sure, some folks are in the habit of referring to basically everything we do in a coordinated fashion as "drill". And yes, if we use that categorization, then the first drill that's done is on the parade square.

But you don't need to start with that, and you don't need to focus on it, and you don't need to keep doing it. If you want to teach people how to handle a weapon, you don't need to teach them to march around in formation first. You can just teach them weapon handling drills such as your TOETs, etc. Just because we do start with parade drill doesn't mean that we need to, nor does it mean that it's helpful. Jumping straight into the useful stuff will also do the trick. No one ever needs to know how to do a present arms in combat.

We can still categorize drill into "stuff that's actually applicable to combat" and "stuff that is ceremonial". And I thus far have still never heard a valid argument for why skipping the ceremonial stuff and going straight to the practical stuff would somehow make the prcoess worse.

Just because we've been doing something the same way forever is not a valid argument for continuing to do so. You need to actually demonstrate the value of the things we're spending time on.

 

[Weinie]

I believe we're now getting into tautological arguments here. Sure, some folks are in the habit of referring to basically everything we do in a coordinated fashion as "drill". And yes, if we use that categorization, then the first drill that's done is on the parade square.

But you don't need to start with that, and you don't need to focus on it, and you don't need to keep doing it. If you want to teach people how to handle a weapon, you don't need to teach them to march around in formation first. You can just teach them weapon handling drills such as your TOETs, etc. Just because we do start with parade drill doesn't mean that we need to, nor does it mean that it's helpful. Jumping straight into the useful stuff will also do the trick. No one ever needs to know how to do a present arms in combat.

We can still categorize drill into "stuff that's actually applicable to combat" and "stuff that is ceremonial". And I thus far have still never heard a valid argument for why skipping the ceremonial stuff and going straight to the practical stuff would somehow make the prcoess worse.

Just because we've been doing something the same way forever is not a valid argument for continuing to do so. You need to actually demonstrate the value of the things we're spending time on.

You are the epitome of tautology. Just stop, please.

 

[MJP]

This has turned into a discussion about apples and aircraft carriers. Your opinion on anything within/outside this topic (plus a tooney) will get you a Timmies double/double across Canada.

Considering the decision has been made to remove rifle drill at this stage of training your post is on point. While reading recent Court Martials I was struck by this comment in one of them

From MacKay v. The Queen ([1980] 2 S.C.R. 370, at page 400) "given that young members undergo their training with weapons, it would make the underlying purpose of a soldier’s military training and service functionally inadequate if they could not be subjected to the internal discipline and procedures of the profession itself. Discipline is not only essential to service life, but it is the underpinning of all military training and has been recognized by the Supreme Court of Canada (SCC) and classified as, “an essential ingredient of service life” (

I could be wrong but most people would agree that many aspects of military service come with discipline in many regards. How to achieve/instill that discipline becomes the crux both to new members and as reinforcing function across serving members. Likely a newer member needs something like a BMQ routine which includes things like drill. Do they need rifle drill or will foot drill suffice seems to the angels on the head of a pin question we are all dancing about on. Will previous cohorts be better disciplined because they did rifle drill or will it all come out in the wash that generally most people will be fine, we will have some high & low achievers and the sun will continue to set in West and rise in the East regardless of what level of drill one did in BMQ/BMOQ?

 

[Weinie]

Considering the decision has been made to remove rifle drill at this stage of training your post is on point. While reading recent Court Martials I was struck by this comment in one of them

From MacKay v. The Queen ([1980] 2 S.C.R. 370, at page 400) "given that young members undergo their training with weapons, it would make the underlying purpose of a soldier’s military training and service functionally inadequate if they could not be subjected to the internal discipline and procedures of the profession itself. Discipline is not only essential to service life, but it is the underpinning of all military training and has been recognized by the Supreme Court of Canada (SCC) and classified as, “an essential ingredient of service life” (

I could be wrong but most people would agree that many aspects of military service come with discipline in many regards. How to achieve/instill that discipline becomes the crux both to new members and as reinforcing function across serving members. Likely a newer member needs something like a BMQ routine which includes things like drill. Do they need rifle drill or will foot drill suffice seems to the angels on the head of a pin question we are all dancing about on. Will previous cohorts be better disciplined because they did rifle drill or will it all come out in the wash that generally most people will be fine, we will have some high & low achievers and the sun will continue to set in West and rise in the East regardless of what level of drill one did in BMQ/BMOQ?

This.

 

[Remius]

I believe we're now getting into tautological arguments here. Sure, some folks are in the habit of referring to basically everything we do in a coordinated fashion as "drill". And yes, if we use that categorization, then the first drill that's done is on the parade square.

But you don't need to start with that, and you don't need to focus on it, and you don't need to keep doing it. If you want to teach people how to handle a weapon, you don't need to teach them to march around in formation first. You can just teach them weapon handling drills such as your TOETs, etc. Just because we do start with parade drill doesn't mean that we need to, nor does it mean that it's helpful. Jumping straight into the useful stuff will also do the trick. No one ever needs to know how to do a present arms in combat.

We can still categorize drill into "stuff that's actually applicable to combat" and "stuff that is ceremonial". And I thus far have still never heard a valid argument for why skipping the ceremonial stuff and going straight to the practical stuff would somehow make the prcoess worse.

Just because we've been doing something the same way forever is not a valid argument for continuing to do so. You need to actually demonstrate the value of the things we're spending time on.

You clearly don’t understand or want to understand the purpose of drill on a BMQ. And what it sets to achieve in developing a soldier, airman, sailor etc. It’s a building block at various levels. It doesn’t matter what drill (rifle, foot etc).

You don’t like it. Therefore it must be bad and we should stop doing it. That line of thinking is far from convincing.

 

[dapaterson]

If you can't do a right incline at the slow march, the communists win.

 

[btrudy]

I'd say it's the daily routine of basic training itself that does the vast majority of the heavy lifting when it comes to emphasizing the importance of discipline. Get up early, keep things clean and orderly, be where we tell you to be when you tell you to be there, follow this list of rules for conduct, look after your buddies, etc.

Drill, be it w/rifle or just on foot is a skill. Both disciplined and undisciplined people can be good at that skill.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I'm in. Get rid of it all. Not having to teach drill will shorten the PLQ/JLC/CLC/WhateverC by four weeks! Four less weeks of Belt Fed Rooster when you're supposed to be learning leadership is okay by me.

 

[Remius]

I'd say it's the daily routine of basic training itself that does the vast majority of the heavy lifting when it comes to emphasizing the importance of discipline. Get up early, keep things clean and orderly, be where we tell you to be when you tell you to be there, follow this list of rules for conduct, look after your buddies, etc.

Drill, be it w/rifle or just on foot is a skill. Both disciplined and undisciplined people can be good at that skill.

Again you don’t understand. Drill is just one part, so are the various daily routine things of a BMQ. The totality of which leads to a desired result. Each part being a building block to try and get an end product.

 

[Halifax Tar]

So is the assumption by some that the removal of rifle drill from BRT and BMOQ will produce a lesser disciplined service person?

By that metric should service persons be continually practicing rifle drill after BRT to maintain that discipline ?

 

[btrudy]

Again you don’t understand. Drill is just one part, so are the various daily routine things of a BMQ. The totality of which leads to a desired result. Each part being a building block to try and get an end product.

You don't understand. You can better build the whole by eliminating / de-emphasizing those parts which are less useful / efficient in contributing towards the desired end state. To use a somewhat tongue in cheek analogy, you don't get from point A to point B faster by doing a lot of marking time.

We can focus our efforts on those things that are more valuable, while spending less time on those that aren't.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Again you don’t understand. Drill is just one part, so are the various daily routine things of a BMQ. The totality of which leads to a desired result. Each part being a building block to try and get an end product.

It's almost like it's a course with a QS and some sort of TP that an educated person developed

This document literally lays out exactly what the learning objectives are

You don't understand. You can better build the whole by eliminating / de-emphasizing those parts which are less useful / efficient in contributing towards the desired end state. To use a somewhat tongue in cheek analogy, you don't get from point A to point B faster by doing a lot of marking time.

We can focus our efforts on those things that are more valuable, while spending less time on those that aren't.

I personally think all rifle drill should be done at the double time and high port. We'd drastically reduce fabric usage in the CAF and reduce the requirement for XXXL clothing sizes

 

[Raymondacbot]

Apparently the reason is for teaching new carbine drill, not removing it entirely. The school needs everyone to learn the new drill before parades with weapons.

 

[Remius]

You don't understand. You can better build the whole by eliminating / de-emphasizing those parts which are less useful / efficient in contributing towards the desired end state. To use a somewhat tongue in cheek analogy, you don't get from point A to point B faster by doing a lot of marking time.

We can focus our efforts on those things that are more valuable, while spending less time on those that aren't.

Nope. Totally get it, you want to eliminate what you don’t like. It isn’t based on any empirical evidence other than you don’t like something.

Same as making your bed. What does that have to do with firing a rifle? Nothing. But it’s a routine we’ve established that contributes to the overall concept of developing a civilian into a soldier.

 

[Remius]

Apparently the reason is for teaching new carbine drill, not removing it entirely. The school needs everyone to learn the new drill before parades with weapons.

It’s really just ground arms and the stand at ease lol. The rest is pretty much the same.

 

[dapaterson]

Nope. Totally get it, you want to eliminate what you don’t like. It isn’t based on any empirical evidence other than you don’t like something.

Same as making your bed. What does that have to do with firing a rifle? Nothing. But it’s a routine we’ve established that contributes to the overall concept of developing a civilian into a soldier.

What empirical evidence is there that teaching rifle drill produces desired outcomes?