No Silent Night- Claim by US Historian about US Artillery in World War 2

[Old Sweat]

Fort Leavenworth was reprinting and circulating British directives and procedures and not just for the artillery even before the US declared war on Germany. Modify - I checked my notes. The Army War College was publishing what were called GHQ Notes. The BEF had a very effective lessons learned system and contrary to popular opinion, tactics and organizations were constantly being revised based on experience.

 

[Red 6]

Old Sweat, Thanks for the intel. I suspected that was the case.

-Mark-

 

[Chispa]

Chispa

Have you read No Holding Back. If not, I suggest you see if your local library has a copy, or can get you one on loan. I discussed the fire plan and the air plan in detail in it. I also reached the following conclusions:

Thoughts? I feel for you. My wife had Bell's Palsy at one time and it ain't fun.

Hi thank you kindly for your empathy, and empathise with what your wife endured, for women it’s more dramatic, etc., hope no remnants, in 80% of cases the disorder clears up 100%, per say.

In full disclosure, have not read any in over 2 ½ decades, Yes many have advised I should, unfortunately have not read the book in question, which met with critical praise from many. All this stuff is a hobby pour moi per say, the thrill of “The Paper Chase.” Shelved all my CDN SWW archives, now on stick, over a decade ago, chose a road less glamorous and traveled, pre & FWW CDN accounts, facts Vs folklore. On my LT have some sww files, notes, etc., tend too fined stuff when looking for something else.

Will need to check my Stick prior to further reply for Totalise, etc., Phase II of the Normandy campaign, the Germans by Spring & Totalise were battered in need of supplies., etc., headed Northward, while the Allies were also in great need: All headed to the port of Antwerp in the Scheldt estuary.


NO HOLDING BACK: Operation TOTALIZE, Normandy, August 1944 by B.A. Reid, believe I have notes, etc., on the book.


PBA will check back in some days or when permited, just posting this MSG was hard.

THK U FR YR TME,

C.U.

 

[Chispa]

The Soviets used large numbers of tubes to compensate for less flexible communications and control.  Basically, when you lack the capability to move the fires of one battery around quickly, you can compensate by having more batteries.

Believe this also applies too their Tanks and Armour.

 

[Chispa]

How much assistance did the US Army field artillery receive on the Western Front by BEF gunners sharing information, techniques, and tactics?

Just posting quickly:In repartee, doctrine, sharing goes back pre WOI: For all those interested took a look at my US Army pre (World War) renamed WWI in 1945, and WWII Stick, seems some of the links, too PDF’s, Doc’s, I have are on the fritz’s, the below provides guidance on US Army, Artillery, Doctrine, etc.


From (LOC): U.S. Army Order of Battle 1919-1941, Vol. II., by Lt. Col. (Ret.) Steven E. Clay.
http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/download/csipubs/OrderOfBattle/OrderofBattle2.pdf

Travails of Peace and War Field Artillery in the 1930s and Early 1940s Boyd Dastrup
http://analysis.williamdoneil.com/Hist/FA/Field%20Arty%201930s-40s%20-%20Dastrup.pdf

The Field Artillery Journal 1945.
http://sill-www.army.mil/firesbulletin/archives/1945/OCT_1945/OCT_1945_FULL_EDITION.pdf

A Command Post at War First Army Headquarters in Europe, 1943- 1945, By David W Hogan: CENTER OF MILITARY HISTORY UNITED STATES ARMY WASHINGTON, D.C. 2000. http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/070/70-60/CMH_Pub_70-60.pdf


Busting the Bocage: American Combined Arms Operations in France 6 June--31 July 1944, By Captain Michael D. Doubler. U.S. Army Command and General Staff College Fort Leavenworth, Kansas 66027-6900.

U.S. Army Organization and Doctrine: The basic composition of the triangular division was three infantry regiments and a variety of combat and combat support troops at the division level (see figure 1). Taken together, the weaponry within a triangular division gave commanders at all levels vast amounts of firepower. The division artillery was foremost in combat power among the assets found at division level. The division artillery had four battalions-three 105-mm howitzer battalions with twelve guns each and a 155-mm howitzer battalion with twelve guns. The standard infantry regiment, the next major command below division level, consisted of three infantry battalions, an antitank company, a cannon company, a headquarters company, a service company, and a medical detachment. The next lower organization was the infantry battalion. Three rifle companies, a heavy weapons company, and a headquarters company comprised an 871-man battalion. The rifle company consisted of 3 rifle platoons, a weapons platoon, and a small headquarters section and had a total manpower strength of 6 officers and 187 enlisted men. The weapons platoon was armed with two .30-caliber and one .50-caliber machine guns, three 60-mm mortars, and three 2.36-inch bazookas. Three infantry squads comprised a rifle platoon. Each rifle squad consisted of twelve men armed with ten M1 Garand rifles, one Browning automatic rifle, and one M1903 bolt-action Springfield rifle. Despite the awesome, aggregate firepower of the weapons within a triangular division, the lifeblood of the infantry division was the 5,211 officers and combat infantrymen who manned its 27 rifle companies.3 Russell Frank Weigley, Eisenhower's Lieutenants: The Campaign of France and Germany, 1944-1945 (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1981), p. 24. http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/CSI/CSI-Bocage/#2


C.U.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Just posting quickly:In repartee, doctrine, sharing goes back pre WOI: For all those interested took a look at my US Army pre (World War) renamed WWI in 1945, and WWII Stick, seems some of the links, too PDF’s, Doc’s, I have are on the fritz’s, the below provides guidance on US Army, Artillery, Doctrine, etc.


From (LOC): U.S. Army Order of Battle 1919-1941, Vol. II., by Lt. Col. (Ret.) Steven E. Clay.
http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/download/csipubs/OrderOfBattle/OrderofBattle2.pdf

Travails of Peace and War Field Artillery in the 1930s and Early 1940s Boyd Dastrup
http://analysis.williamdoneil.com/Hist/FA/Field%20Arty%201930s-40s%20-%20Dastrup.pdf

The Field Artillery Journal 1945.
http://sill-www.army.mil/firesbulletin/archives/1945/OCT_1945/OCT_1945_FULL_EDITION.pdf

A Command Post at War First Army Headquarters in Europe, 1943- 1945, By David W Hogan: CENTER OF MILITARY HISTORY UNITED STATES ARMY WASHINGTON, D.C. 2000. http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/070/70-60/CMH_Pub_70-60.pdf


Busting the Bocage: American Combined Arms Operations in France 6 June--31 July 1944, By Captain Michael D. Doubler. U.S. Army Command and General Staff College Fort Leavenworth, Kansas 66027-6900.

U.S. Army Organization and Doctrine: The basic composition of the triangular division was three infantry regiments and a variety of combat and combat support troops at the division level (see figure 1). Taken together, the weaponry within a triangular division gave commanders at all levels vast amounts of firepower. The division artillery was foremost in combat power among the assets found at division level. The division artillery had four battalions-three 105-mm howitzer battalions with twelve guns each and a 155-mm howitzer battalion with twelve guns. The standard infantry regiment, the next major command below division level, consisted of three infantry battalions, an antitank company, a cannon company, a headquarters company, a service company, and a medical detachment. The next lower organization was the infantry battalion. Three rifle companies, a heavy weapons company, and a headquarters company comprised an 871-man battalion. The rifle company consisted of 3 rifle platoons, a weapons platoon, and a small headquarters section and had a total manpower strength of 6 officers and 187 enlisted men. The weapons platoon was armed with two .30-caliber and one .50-caliber machine guns, three 60-mm mortars, and three 2.36-inch bazookas. Three infantry squads comprised a rifle platoon. Each rifle squad consisted of twelve men armed with ten M1 Garand rifles, one Browning automatic rifle, and one M1903 bolt-action Springfield rifle. Despite the awesome, aggregate firepower of the weapons within a triangular division, the lifeblood of the infantry division was the 5,211 officers and combat infantrymen who manned its 27 rifle companies.3 Russell Frank Weigley, Eisenhower's Lieutenants: The Campaign of France and Germany, 1944-1945 (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1981), p. 24. http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/CSI/CSI-Bocage/#2


C.U.

It would be instructive to map out our current order of battle in comparison to this (70+ year old) order of battle and send it to the right people with a note in the margin: 'WTF, man?'.

 

[FJAG]

Just posting quickly:In repartee, doctrine, sharing goes back pre WOI: . . .

You can take it back even further.

In the 1850s, the US Army was involved in many major reforms of tactics, weapons and even uniforms. A large role in this was played by various liaison officers (including one Capt George McLellan) sent to Europe to study the armies there including their performance in the Crimean War.

The manual, Hardee's Tactics published in 1855 and the basic bible for both US and Confederate forces was heavily influenced by French drill and tactical practices of the time (including their failure to comprehend the effect of the French developed Minie ball, its resultant wide acceptance of the rifled musket, and the overall devastating mass casualties inflicted on close order battle formations)

:cheers:

 

[Red 6]

I just finished an outstanding book called From Boer War to World War: Tactical Reform of the British Army, 1902–1914, by Spencer Jones. It provides a general overview, and sections on the infantry, cavalry, and artillery. Pertinent to this discussion is the section on the development of artillery doctrine and lessons learned the hard way fighting against the Boers. With the mentions of the US Army Field Artillery School at Ft Sill, I wonder how closely the Americans paid attention to artillery employment in South Africa and how the British shaped their training and doctrine in the interwar period.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . . . I wonder how closely the Americans paid attention to artillery employment in South Africa and how the British shaped their training and doctrine in the interwar period.

There are probably more theses on the same topic out there (artillery majors at Leavenworth have to write something) but this one showed up early in a google search.

FIELD ARTILLERY DOCTRINE DEVELOPMENT 1917-1945
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a242118.pdf

. . . . . The Americans had played no part
whatever in the tactical revolution that began in 1914. Our most
recent combat experience had been against Philippino and Mexican
guerrillas, a far cry from the massed armies of the Western Front.
The artillery of the Regular Army was Insufficient to outfit a
single division. 4 Given this, It is not surprislng to learn that
nearly all U.S. field artillery units that fought in World War I
were trained largely by French officers and equipped with French
materiel.' In fact, a significant portion of the American
Expeditionary Force's (A.E.F) artillery support was provided by
French units. During the great Meuse-Argonne Offensive, the
largest American attack of the War, French units made up more than
half of the corps and army artillery that supported U.S. First
Army.7 Because the U.S. Army was without experience at handling
large amounts of artillery in modern war, most of the doctrinal and
tactical pamphlets prepared by the U.S. War Department for the
artillery were simply copies of French and British training
circulars.' Thus, the field artillery doctrine that emerged from
World War I, and would form the basis of U.S. doctrine during World
War II, was largely inherited from the French and British. The
doctrine that the U.S. would apply so successfully in the mobile
battles of World War II, had its origins in the deadlocked trenches
of 1914-1918.

For some idea of the discussion about and the development of field artillery doctrine with a contemporary perspective, past issues (from the initial volume of 1911) of The Field Artillery Journal are available here.  http://sill-www.army.mil/firesbulletin/archives/

A quick look through a few of the early issues would indicate that early pre-WW1 doctrine development may have been influenced just as much (or more) by the French and the Japanese (based on their superior handling of guns over the Russians) as by the British.