Nomenclature of the Divisional System

[Sailing Instructor]

I've just skimmed over MARCOM's Guide to the Divisional System & the read has left me with a few questions:

I understand that, unlike the army's COC, the divisional system is more 'flexible' in that there are not fixed sections, platoons, companies, battalions, etc. but rather a series of divisions which are of a size suited to their task.  With that in mind, what are the common names for the various 'types' of divisions?  For instance, I know the division which runs an entire ship is the 'ship's company' and there are various 'departments' within the ship's coy.  Specifically, I suppose I'm asking what depts are divided into.

Also, the Guide to the Divisional System indicates that divisions should always try to work together in the completion of their tasks (for obvious reasons of leadership & jr/snr relations) but is there any precedent for a purely personnel-administrative division (rather than a task-based one)?

These questions come up as I have experienced a form of the divisional system as a sea cadet and now, as I volunteer with my cadet ship's coy, I am considering how our divisional system compares to that of most Canadian ships and how to improve it.  (Also, I figure that knowing this system just might help a little in my career as a MARS officer.)

PS.  What is the history of naming divisions (after ships)?  At first I thought this was a function of the sea cadet corps but it seems the naval reserve does it (at least on basic trg) as was the experience of a friend of mine. 

 

[YukonJack]

  A Ship's Company (the entire crew) is broken up into Divisions, and further into Departments (sections). Combat Systems Engineering Division (CSE) and Mechanical Engineering Division (MSE) are two of them. Within these Main Divisions, you'd have the sections (trades). In MSE Div, you'd have Marine Engineers (all trade groups), Marine Electricians (all trade groups), Hull Technicians, and Firefighters would be attached to this Division as well.
  That's a simple example of a Division. It's get's a might more complicated with CSE Div (they have a pile-o-bodies and trades). As well, it gets too simple, like Seamanship Div, it's just Bosn's and thus is really known as the Deck Department only.....but you get the idea, I'm sure. Hope that helps.
  Each Division has a Senior Officer also known as a Department Head (CSEO, MSEO, DeckO, WpnsO,) and each Div has a CPO2 as a divisional chief (Departmental Chief). Each Section in the Div's has a CPO2, PO1 or a PO2 (depending on the size of the section) as a section head. (Senior ET, Senior HT, Buffer, Chief Cook, I/c OSM, Snr NavCom...ect).
  Oh yeah, if your not completely confused yet, when a 'Ship's Company' "has Divisions", we really mean a parade in best bib and tucker (otherwise it's only known as 'hands fall in'....!!)

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Not to forget the Combat Department which has your NciOps, Sonar Ops, Nes Ops, Nav Comms and your Met types.

 

[Sailing Instructor]

Thanks!  Actually I'm not that confused at all.  Just a few clarifications:

So just to make sure I'm understanding things correctly: one could call any group in the navy a division, thus, aboard each ship there are several sizes of divisions, from largest to smallest they are:
1)Captain is DO for XO (and entire ship's coy?)
2)XO is DO for HODs
3)HODs DOs for respective depts
4)Section heads DOs (or just DCPOs?) for respective sections within dept

Beyond this, how are DOs & DCPOs assigned?  E.g. are (sub)lieutenants in charge of sections, or only ratings? 

To follow up, perhaps I would best understand the system if someone were to tell me how the ship's coy falls in for divisions (i.e. tell me who's in front of what group).  And when parading ashore, does the ship's coy form up 'Ship's Company En Masse' rather than the U-shaped formation seen on the quarterdeck?

I've looked at many HMCS websites and they all talk of, for example, the 'Combat Systems Engineering Department' whereas YukonJack has referred to these as the 'Combat Systems Engineering Division,' etc.  Are these terms interchangeable?  Or are they technically two separate entities which practically have the same personnel, e.g. 'Deck Department' and 'Seamanship Division'?

Also, is there any resource--besides the Guide to the Div System--that will make this clearer for me?  I hate to ask question upon question for simple facts like these.  But thanks for the replies!

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Ok I will give you the break down for the Combat Department on my ship.
Combat Officer- Lt(N)
Weapons Officer- Lt(N)
Operations Room Officer- Lt (N)
SWC- Lt(N) Senior Nes Op (PO1) does this position as well{opposite watch}
ASWC- Lt(N) Senior Sonar Op (PO1) does this position as well{opposite watch}
SAC/CIO- S/Lt or Lt (N)
Combat Chief- CPO2
Snr NCI Op- PO1
Snr Sonar Op- PO1
Senior NesOp- PO1
Senior Nav Com- PO1
Senor Met Tech- WO

 

[YukonJack]

Break down for the MSE Division on a ship; CPF's have Lt(N) for Engineering Officer, 280's and Tankers have a LCdr. CERA's are CPO2's on CPF's and CPO1's on Tankers and 280's. Interestingly, most billets are for one rank higher on 280's and Tankers. The Snr HT and Snr ET on 280's and Tankers are CPO2's. The CO's are Capt(N) and XO's are Cdr's.

MSEO - Lt(N) or LCdr ( Divisional Officer for the whole Division, and  DO for the Marine Engineers )
A/MSEO - S/Lt (known as Baby EO, a fellow under training to gain HOD Qualification, is DO for ET's, HT's and FF's )
Chief Engine Room Artificer- CPO2 ( CERA, is Divisional Chief for whole Division, and Div Chief for Marine Eng pers, )
Snr ET - PO1 ( I/c Electrical )
Snr HT - PO1 ( I/c Hull )
Snr FF - Sgt ( I/c Firefighter )

DO's are assigned by their particular discipline. Obviously, a Mars Officer would not be DO for Engineering Division. A supply Officer would not be DO for the Combat Department. MARS Officers are a bit different, they can be slightly more interchangeable. They could be posted in as a Deck Officer, or maybe even a Navigating Officer. Additional S/Lt are usually borne, under training to achieve HOD. They may be relegated the duties of DO for sub-sections.

Div Chiefs are assigned by the billet they are posted into. There would only be a need for one PO1 NCI Op on board for example, and he would be the Snr NCI Op ( section Head ). Additionally, only one CPO2 Stoker would be posted to a ship, and he would be the CERA.

Ashore or on board, we would always fall-in by Department/Division. Combat, Combat Systems, Supply, Deck, MSE and Supernumerary Officers. Only the physical shape of the formation would change.

I apologize for the confusing post previous. The terms are somewhat interchangeable, however I suppose in the strictest sense as Ex Dragoon provided, we are all broken up into Departments. When referring to the Divisional chain of command, (the Divisional System), that is where we would have to refer to Divisions per se.
One could easily be misled to think these are simple facts. There are some of us still so confused, we only concentrate on the immediate level above our position, and never truly understand what's up until we hit the end.

 

[Navalsnpr]

I think there is some confusion between departments and divisions. All the similar trade groups on board HMC Ships are departments.

The Divisional System, is what many in the Army would refer to as the Chain of Command.   The guide you speak of is a document that was put together a while back to help assist with ensuring that subordinates were properly taken care of in the administrative sense by their superiors.

Divisions is also a term used in the Navy to describe a formal parade. A semi-formal parade in work dress would be called Hands-Fall-In.

There is a regular entry in the East Coasts Navy News Letter called "Navy Terms". It has some neat entries and provides clarification on Nautical terms. You can read this publication at:   http://www.tridentnews.ca

 

[MissHardie]

Sailing Instructor,

The following diagram may help explain the divisional system on a ship - it's from my notes on Ship's Functional Org.

Also, when on course (in the Reserves, at least, though I'm pretty sure it's the same for Reg Force), division names are taken from ships.  I was in both Nanaimo this summer for BOTC and Porte Dauphine (an old gate vessel) for MARS 2.

 

[Sailing Instructor]

Thanks for all the replies! Now I'm finally getting it.  Of course, a few more questions:

Re: the diagram.  Under, for example, Exec Dept there is Admin, followed by Reg, followed by Med.  I am assuming that Reg & Med are not actually subordinate to Admin, it's just a simplification of the chart, right?

And back to names again: are the sections (i.e. groups of the same trade with a Snr tradesman as i/c) within depts usually called 'divisions' (as they are in the chart).  And does the size of the section determine whether they get a DO or just a DPO (i.e. Snr tradesman)?  Or are SLts assigned as DOs for sections as often as possible?

When formed up for divisions, would sections ever fall in separately, formed under a HOD and DCPO (i.e. akin to platoons in a coy) or does the supernumerary division take care of the DOs for each section?

Again, thanks for all the help.  I'm trying to see what ways the Divisional System can be used more effectively in my cadet ship's coy.  Of course, cadets only separate by trades in summer trg, so I'm really wracking my brains on this one.

 

[Navalsnpr]

Normally the Exec dept consist of all the RMS Clerks, the medical staff onboard as well as the XO, CO, Coxn. Of course the last 3 won't fall in!!

Everyone gets a Divisional Officer. Normally, the junior personnel will have a junior officer as a DO and then the higher ranking an NCM is will see a higher officer as a DO ie. A LS would have a SLT officer under training as a DO, whereas a P1 would have the HOD as a DO.

During Hands Fall In or Divisions, the DCPO (CPO2) will command the department until the HOD (LT(N) or LCdr) falls in. Each department falls in separately (Combat, CSE, Deck & Admin, Supply, MSE, Supernumerary Officers)

 

[Sailing Instructor]

Just a question on divisions/ceremonial divisions: is the supernumerary officers' division intended to separate those officers who are not commanding a division (i.e. who aren't HODs) from the NCMs?  E.g. a SLt is DO for a section but, since that section falls in as part of the larger department, he falls in as a supernumerary officer.  Yes?

In other words, the parade format does not exactly reflect the divisional system.

 

[Navalsnpr]

Yes, the parade format doesn't reflect the divisional system.

Unlike the Army which would see One Officer for approximately 30 personnel, in the Navy you would see 6 departments with 6 Officer's in charge of them. As there are over 30 Officers on a CPF, then a requirement exists to form another "supernumeray" platoon filled with just the left over officers.