NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden

[Nemo888]

Alwaki was the Tony Robbins of English speaking jihadis. It's work to turn that into a capital crime but why not try him in absentia then kill him. Why blaze a new trail and allow murder of citizens by Presidential order. Murder by decree is a terrible precedent. It may be justifiable this time, but what happens 20 years from now?

 

[Good2Golf]

...but why not try him in absentia then kill him...

Ummm, you do know that Yemen did exactly that, right? 

Do you know that the Yemeni and US Governments were not co-operating, and that as the two nations whose nationalities al Awlaki held, carried out the Yemeni sentence together?

 

[jollyjacktar]

Nemo, you seem to be the only one here crying over Alwaki's death.  I won't shed a tear on what or how it was done.  And I don't think I'm alone here on this.  You, on the other hand seem to be in the wilderness.  Hope the wolves don't eat you one day.

 

[Nemo888]

Then Samir Khan or Awlaki's 16 year old son. It doesn't really matter who the scumbag they use it on as a test case. The precedent has been set and the legal framework installed. This is a huge change and the eventual outcome of letting Presidents murder citizens who they decide are "bad"  will inevitably lead to abuse if it is let stand. This doesn't expire. Presidents can do this legally from now on. This time, of course, who gives a crap. But what about next time or the hundredth time?

 

[kevincanada]

What happen to this being about Snowden?

 

[Nemo888]

Snowden thought the state had taken more power than it needed and would eventually become a threat to it's own citizens and no one even noticed.  At least that is what 55% of Americans think. Only 34%  think he is a traitor. Some, like me, think he is both.

I've had some unpopular opinions over the years and come to logger heads with Army accepted wisdom. Iraq is a terrible idea without UN support. Torturing detainees will bite us in the ass. Afghanistan is unwinnable. The police state tactics we are using need to expire someday. I can live with that.

 

[George Wallace]

Anwar Awlaki, an American citizen who led external operations for Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, as well as strikes that killed three other American citizens.

Just out of curiosity, and to do a little bit of speculation on my own; do either of you know Anwar Awlaki personally?  Do you know if he RENOUNCED his American Citizenship or not?  Perhaps he did.  None of us here know, and if he did then he was NOT an American citizen.  Just speculation of course, but why would anyone wage war on his country without renouncing citizenship to that country? 

On the topic of putting an old man into jail:  Publishing "Hate literature" is a Hate Crime in this country.  Age does not give you a "Get out of Jail FREE" card. 

 

[Nemo888]

If only there was some way to get to the bottom of this,... Like a trial by a judge who uses a preponderance of evidence. Bwahahaha  >

 

[George Wallace]

If only there was some way to get to the bottom of this,... Like a trial by a judge who uses a preponderance of evidence. Bwahahaha  >

What would it matter to you?  You seem to find a conspiracy behind every door.  You have little knowledge of the legal checks and balances, nor the legal systems, in place to protect you, and use false speculation at every turn. 

 

[kevincanada]

Snowden thought the state had taken more power than it needed and would eventually become a threat to it's own citizens and no one even noticed.  At least that is what 55% of Americans think. Only 34%  think he is a traitor. Some, like me, think he is both.

I've had some unpopular opinions over the years and come to logger heads with Army accepted wisdom. Iraq is a terrible idea without UN support. Torturing detainees will bite us in the ***. Afghanistan is unwinnable. The police state tactics we are using need to expire someday. I can live with that.

I am feeling the need to say this again.  Am I that naive that I grew up expecting the state to collect information.  The problem is not power, the problem is not information.  The problem is *if* that power and information is being abused.  If there is no abuse don't worry about it.  If there is abuse then take it to the proper people or the courts.  The state is still not above the court and at the end of the day it is civilians that sit on the jury of the court.

The state will always have power may as well get use to it.  Without it there would be no healthcare system, there would be no armed forces.  We would of lost WW2.  Paul Bernardo would be free.  I wonder if thoughts like those four examples crossed Snowden's mind before he decided to betray the USA.

Talking about Anwar Awlaki.  I have read some about terrorism.  While I can only speculate, I would have to lay odds of infinity to 1.  He had personally but not officially revoked his American citizenship based on my own understanding of what is terrorism.  Terrorism and western world are in complete contrast of each other.  It is not in the the terrorist interest to revoke their USA citizenship, it is in their interest to try and keep that citizenship in good standing.

 

[George Wallace]

From another thread:

There is a law pertaining to whistle blowers - if you follow the procedures.Manning and Snowden are NOT whistle blowers.
Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989 .

The Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989 provides protection only for individuals within the federal government. The coverage applies to current and former government employees, as well as people who are applying for a job with the federal government. Some federal employees do not receive protection from the 1989 act, including members of the FBI, the United States Postal Service and the National Security Agency.

As neither one of these two gents went to their superiors to report their findings, but instead went clandestinely to international organizations, such as WikiLeaks, they can not be considered "Whistle-blowers" in all the legal sense of the intent.  They would more likely fall under any act, legislation, and/or law dealing with espionage.  To be a "Whistle-blower" is one thing quite different from "aiding and abetting your enemies".

 

[Transporter]

There would be far fewer Snowdens if we dealt more swiftly and more severely with the Mannings and Delisles.

 

[George Wallace]

There would be far fewer Snowdens if we dealt more swiftly and more severely with the Mannings and Delisles.

How much swifter can we act?  The detection and arrest of these culprits does not happen in a quick manner.  There is no magic means to instantly detect and arrest those who would put our freedoms at risk.  Then the legal system grinds on at a slow pace to ensure both the Prosecution and the Defence have ample time and resources to conduct their part of a fair trial. 

 

[Transporter]

That's my point. In the 3+ years since Bradley Manning was arrested he has become a "cause celebre" for all the folks out there - even some still in uniform perhaps - who believe that this guy did absolutely nothing wrong. I understand the legalities of due process afforded by the civil and military justice systems, etc. But mark my words, there are more Mannings and Snowdens to come. Why? Because in the eyes of some in our twisted fame-whore society today, they've just watched these guys become famous, held up by some elements of society as great patriots, and to whom we should all be thankful for their bravery and sacrifices. Don't believe me? Wait and see how the Snowden affair plays out. Bet he's on the cover of Rolling Stone before Christmas.

 

[George Wallace]

Your point?

What point?  It is not magic.  How do you propose we detect these people in a timely manner?

 

[armyvern]

... I can live with that.

Glad that you can.

Now, what I need to do is go grab the full metal jacket off of my baked potato and fashion it into some form of headwarmer, skip my meal entirely and go straight to my haloperidol and loxapine cocktail before I slip into a sound sleep of my own.

 

[Inquisitor]

Whats that music I hear - sounds like the background theme from Jaws - Is that a Mod I hear?

Nemo888 - May I suggest that you have brought a knife to a gun fight???? I speak as one who has on occasion.

I suggest those that swim against the flow need to be carful about picking their ground.

That said I understand the rationale but popping Al-wakis 16 year old son seemed a bit excessive.

I also note something else I find troubling. It is reported that many of these strikes are a double-tap. I.e. One for the target, the next one a short time later as personnel are combing the wreckage looking for survivors.  A rhetorical question - If a neighbours house 5 doors down from you blew up unexpectedly what would you do? Sadly in cases like these the answer seems to be stay in doors - and bide your time.

 

[GnyHwy]

Don't believe me? Wait and see how the Snowden affair plays out. Bet he's on the cover of Rolling Stone before Christmas.

Is this how we measure success now?  You also alluded to more persons speaking in order to gain fame and fortune.  Believe me when I say, if these persons are so weak minded that they feel need for attention and acceptance from everyone else, chances are their information is not that valuable anyway.

 

[Transporter]

Is this how we measure success now?  You also alluded to more persons speaking in order to gain fame and fortune.  Believe me when I say, if these persons are so weak minded that they feel need for attention and acceptance from everyone else, chances are their information is not that valuable anyway.

I respectfully disagree. Guys with Top Secret security clearances (and higher) a la Manning, Snowden, Delisle, etc have access to plenty of "valuable" information, as do scores of other "ideologues" on our team. The fact that the info they've released thus far might not be considered, by some, as injurious to the national interest (I disagree with that also), doesn't mean they wouldn't have given up much more valuable information if they had the chance - the intent was there all the same. Maybe I'm old school, but a good old firing squad would send a pretty unambiguous message that none of this sort of thing will be tolerated. And I'm telling you, there are more in the Manning/Snowden mold to come. Wait and see.

Hope everyone is enjoying their weekend

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Glad that you can.

Now, what I need to do is go grab the full metal jacket off of my baked potato and fashion it into some form of headwarmer, skip my meal entirely and go straight to my haloperidol and loxapine cocktail before I slip into a sound sleep of my own.

Go for the Mocha Java Vodka Valium Latte.