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OCdt Speaks at Freedom Rally

LittleBlackDevil

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As hopefully a soon-to-be CIC officer but also as a former reserve infantry officer, this OCdt Kenderesi person really angers me with his actions and his hodge-podge of outdated and current kit, half of which he'd not be entitled to even if it were current an Canadian. The man is a complete disgrace in the "stolen valour" variety and makes CAF, and specifically CIC look bad regardless of what his message was. I happen to not be in favour of lockdowns an think there were other ways of dealing with this. I am also chary of injections that have been rushed to market in a timeline that just a few months ago MSM was saying would be dangerously fast (just two examples of what I'm talking about: https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/31/us/c...th/eua-coronavirus-vaccine-history/index.html).

That said, this guy's actions are indefensible. They also make those of us who have questions look like crazy tinfoil hat conspiracy people because we naturally get lumped-in with this guy. So when I saw that he was charged my initial reaction was "good, I hope they throw the book at him." After cooling off for a few days and trying to look at it more objectively, I think that his career in the CAF is clearly done as it should be. I am wondering about the mutiny charge though ... seems a bit like taking out a mosquito with a bazooka, but looking at the law ...

UPDATE. I cannot link the article due to the officer, but the Ottawa Citizen reports that numbnuts has been charged with a mutiny related offence; 81(b) NDA as far as I can tell.

81 Every person who

(b) endeavours to persuade any person to join in a mutiny,

is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for life or to less punishment.

Had a look at the NDA for the legal definition of "mutiny". The term appears to be a bit broader than the dictionary definition, given that mere "insubordination" versus the open rebellion or attempted overthrow of authority in the dictionary definition:

"mutiny means collective insubordination or a combination of two or more persons in the resistance of lawful authority in any of Her Majesty’s Forces or in any forces cooperating therewith; (mutinerie)"

I'd be interested to hear from those with experience/knowledge in military law on what the chances are of this charge sticking. I don't know the ins-and-outs of proving mens rea for this (and it sounds like there may not be a lot of case law precedents), but it seems to me that -- as angry as this idiot's actions make me -- mutiny is a rather heavy charge for a vague speech encouraging military to not administer vaccines IF it comes to pass that they are ordered to.

Conduct unbecoming seems absolutely fitting to me.
 

FormerHorseGuard

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some one here said he was prior service Infantry officer, if so he would have a commission already so he would never be an Officer Cadet again. No matter what you keep your commission even when changing branches or services. Second he claims to be a tank driver, if he was a Horse Guard ( no one remembers him from the tank days , Last time the Horse Guards had tanks was the 60s. Then it was jeep recce, then cougars ( not tanks) then back to recce role with Gwagons and Tapv. If he drove tanks in the GGHG he would be much older and beyond CRA. Too much crap on his resume and introduction at that speech to be considered real. he was on his way out of the CIC for medical reasons, and other reasons. He is a phony with a date to be released and court martial all at the same time.
 

Blackadder1916

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I am wondering about the mutiny charge though ... seems a bit like taking out a mosquito with a bazooka, but looking at the law ...

Had a look at the NDA for the legal definition of "mutiny". The term appears to be a bit broader than the dictionary definition, given that mere "insubordination" versus the open rebellion or attempted overthrow of authority in the dictionary definition:

"mutiny means collective insubordination or a combination of two or more persons in the resistance of lawful authority in any of Her Majesty’s Forces or in any forces cooperating therewith; (mutinerie)"

I'd be interested to hear from those with experience/knowledge in military law on what the chances are of this charge sticking. I don't know the ins-and-outs of proving mens rea for this (and it sounds like there may not be a lot of case law precedents), but it seems to me that -- as angry as this idiot's actions make me -- mutiny is a rather heavy charge for a vague speech encouraging military to not administer vaccines IF it comes to pass that they are ordered to.

Conduct unbecoming seems absolutely fitting to me.

Not a lawyer, though I have been accused on occasion of being the barracks room type. It will be interesting to see how the mutiny related charge unfolds. There isn't much in the QR&O notes to this offence. I suppose that comes from being a rare occurrence, though I did have an RSM in the 1970s who threatened to charge me with inciting to mutiny (for the following couple of years he continued to refer to me as "mutinous bastard").

I had to go back to the law manual used by the Canadian Army up to and through WW2 for some background. I've done some cut and paste of a couple of the pages that discussed mutiny. Unfortunately, the online copy that I was able to find is missing about half the book, which includes the Army Act (the portion like the CSD in the NDA that lists the offences) and Rules of Procedure. I have a paper copy of the complete 1941 manual.

Extracts from the Manual of Military Law 1929 Reprinted for Use in the Canadian Army
MML mutiny.jpg

In that discussion and in references to "mutinies" in other countries' militaries there runs a similar thread. One person does not a mutiny make. The language in Para 5 of the above excerpt seems to suggest that (historically) there had to be a combination of two (or more) before the act of inducing others to join would be viewed as a mutiny related offence.

5. The term "mutiny" implies collective insubordination or a combination of two or more persons to resist or induce others to resist lawful military authority.

And if the charge is "endeavoured to persuade another person to join in a mutiny", who specifically is that other person (as seems to be required in the specimen charge per QR&O 103.14) or are they making the leap that his rambling public embarrassment was "persuasion".
ENDEAVOURED TO PERSUADE ANOTHER PERSON TO JOIN IN A MUTINY

Particulars: In that he, on (date), at (indicate place of offence), endeavoured to persuade (number, rank and name) to join him in refusing to obey the orders of the commanding officer to report for duty.
 

lenaitch

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I'm certainly not up on military law, but the specimen charge texts might not be exhaustive or exclusive. The text of NDA Section 81(b) says:

(b) endeavours to persuade any person to join in a mutiny.

The inclusion of a specific 'any person' in the charge sheet seems irrelevant.
 

Jarnhamar

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I suppose the mutiny stuff is bad but his biggest sin has to be dress and deportment.

Wearing a raincoat (when it's not even raining!) with a beret.
Randomly wearing 82 pattern webbing.
Buck model 119 knife in a sheath that's clearly not designed for the knife.

Terrible.
 

CountDC

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Having dealt with a few charges last couple years I agree with ModlrMike. The JAG went through every charge I sent with a fine tooth comb, recommended drops and changes, finally approved the end drafts that mostly stood the test. Only one charge didn't make it due to wording of the accusation which could have been interpreted different ways (that was a recommended drop that the unit decided to keep).
 

LittleBlackDevil

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In my experience, JAG is not in the habit of recommending charges that have no prospect of conviction.

I don't think anyone disputes this; the fact that JAG only recommends charges where there is a good prospect of conviction doesn't mean that conviction is guaranteed.

I don't know enough about the law to know how strong the prosecution case is in law. The facts won't be very controversial given that you can download his speech on YouTube.
 

daftandbarmy

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I suppose the mutiny stuff is bad but his biggest sin has to be dress and deportment.

Wearing a raincoat (when it's not even raining!) with a beret.
Randomly wearing 82 pattern webbing.
Buck model 119 knife in a sheath that's clearly not designed for the knife.

Terrible.

No scrim on the helmet either... sheesh ;)
 

Scott

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I almost banned him.:p

Edited to reflect not being serious.
 
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