OCdt Speaks at Freedom Rally

[Gunnar]

Sidebar: Are reserve and regular force members supposed to salute CIC officers?
Do they commission after their 2 week course?

The way I look at it, is you salute the officer, not necessarily the man.  Our employer has commissioned CIC members officers, so they are officers.  Respect for an officer in their defined role is never misplaced.  I can understand why someone on the pointy end might not want to salute the leader of a youth organization, but my understanding and sometimes sympathy isn't really at issue.  Nor need it come up unless one or both of us are being jerks.  It's not like we cross paths much.  I won't pretend knowledge of handling a GPMG, and you won't tell me about cadet activities.  But we will pay appropriate compliments because that is who we are.

On a related note, and judging from military members I  have met in recruiting stations (I know), CAF members are invariably polite to civilians as well.  I have always been addressed as Sir by members not directly involved in my case processing.  Unfailingly polite treatment by any military member to any other human being can only reflect well on the member themselves and the organization of which they are part.  To my mind, anything less would seem to imply a lack of discipline.

And if we want to discuss this further, we should probably split it outta this thread.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The way I look at it, is you salute the officer Commission, not necessarily the man Officer. 

FTFY.

Also;  not all CAF members, including Officers, are "men". 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Nor need it come up unless one or both of us are being jerks.  It's not like we cross paths much.  I won't pretend knowledge of handling a GPMG, and you won't tell me about cadet activities.  But we will pay appropriate compliments because that is who we are.

Short story.

It's 20-some years ago, my PRes days.  Our recce sqn is doing a gun camp weekend in Aldershot, NS.  We're waiting for the MLs or something to take us to the range, waiting around close to the old Black Watch Parade Square, those old bldg that were there.  Our SSM (a former CSM from 2 RCR), is passing on some wisdom to the Sqn about range "stuff".  OC D (a Major) is standing off to the side a little, with the BC. 

Army Cadets are also on the Camp this weekend.  A group goes by, lead by a CIC Capt...who isn't happy that that said SSM doesn't salute her.  Cadet group carries on under their Cadet NCO.  CIC Capt wheels about and proceeds to start to (attempt to) jack-up the Sgt-Major;  in front of the Sqn. 

It didn't work out so well, for the Capt, and I distinctly remember the color in her face drain at the point the SSM said "and are you BLIND or something...do you not see the Major standing right there, and like me he is probably @*_)(@#@ wondering why you aren't saluting HIM!".  The last thing I remember, as the CIC Capt scurried away (after saluting the OC) was the SSM yelling in chase "...AND DON'T YOU EVER @#&(*@*#@_(#@ TALK TO ME WHEN I'M ADDRESSING MY @#*(*#@(#@@ TROOPS AGAIN!!!!!!!".

No matter how old I'll get...I'll ALWAYS remember the look on the Sgt-Major's face when the realization came to him that this CIC Capt was going to try to jack him up in front of the Sqn.  ;D

 

[Gunnar]

The way I look at it, is you salute the officer Commission, not necessarily the man Officer.

FTFY.

Tomato/tomahto.  Without a commission, there is no officer.

Also;  not all CAF members, including Officers, are "men". 

True.  And not all frozen desserts are ice cream.  But do you know anyone other than McDonald's Corporate who says "Iced Milk"?

 

[stealthylizard]

You wouldn't salute an officer cadet anyways, they have not yet been commissioned.  They are theoretically below the rank of private as it was explained to me during BMQ, but they should still be given the respect due to an officer as they will become your superior when they finish BMOQ.

I'm sure that I will be corrected by someone for this view.

 

[Gunnar]

Too true.  We are the lowest form of life.  For now.  It's the "for now" part that gets us the occasional mis-delivered salute. 

Someone used to have the tag line here:  "When you Commission something, you're putting it into service. When you Warrant something, you're saying it will work".  Or words to that effect.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Tomato/tomahto.  Without a commission, there is no officer.

True.  And not all frozen desserts are ice cream.  But do you know anyone other than McDonald's Corporate who says "Iced Milk"?

Really? This kind of reply isn't helping, and probably a scenario where that 'unfailing politeness' may slip.  It's not tomato/tomahto, as Ships are also commissioned, and also get saluted for the same reason.

Marks of respect are paid to the person holding the commission on behalf of the Monarch (or head of state). You should probably take a read of the commissioning scroll. That authority has been delegated down to you (via the Gov General, who is the Queen's rep in Canada). So you are saluting someone in a show of respect to the Queen and the institution, not the individual/unit/inanimate carbon rod holding a commission. It can really make it easier once you understand the distinction, because some officers don't really rate the use of the available oxygen in the room, let alone any kind of marks of respect to the individual.

Your second reply is the same kind of stupid that means I have to take time out of my day to attend a briefing to reinforce that words matter, even if I'm already converted over to that viewpoint, because the vocal minority of idiots put a bunch of really stupid things in a survey by responding like a bunch of cavemen in proposed name change to a rank. You should deconflict yourself and drop the attitude.

 

[Weinie]

Doesn't matter what you wear on your shoulder, it's what's between the ears that counts.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Doesn't matter what you wear on your shoulder, it's what's between the ears that counts.

If that were true (in practice) we wouldn't have an inflated rank structure just so that xxxx is required because some other country has an xxxx level at that job.

If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard someone being insulted behind the scenes for "just being a Cpl."

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . .  They are theoretically below the rank of private as it was explained to me during BMQ . . .

Then whomever provided such an explanation didn't know what they are talking about.

Some definitions from QRs

“officer” means

(a) a person who holds Her Majesty's commission in the Canadian Forces,

(b) a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and

“superior officer” means any officer or non-commissioned member who, in relation to any other officer or non-commissioned member, is by the National Defence Act, or by regulations or custom of the service, authorized to give a lawful command to that other officer or non-commissioned member; (supérieur)*

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/queens-regulations-orders/vol-1-administration/ch-3-rank-seniority-command-precedence.html

3.09 – ORDER OF SENIORITY

(1) An officer takes seniority over all non-commissioned members.

There is nothing "theoretical" (as the ignoramus who instructed you on BMQ used the term) about the legal authority of OCdts or about how that authority may be used.  It's only when the players in the game don't know the rules or decide that they want to be an a**hole and disregard the "regulations or custom of the service" that problems arise.  Are OCdts permit to roam free to randomly issue orders to all and sundry NCMs?  No, not usually, but that's because in the normal course of events OCdts are usually in training environments where "by regulation and custom of the service" they are subject to the authority of instructional staff, including NCOs and WOs.  However, circumstances can place an OCdt in a situation where they are the senior (usually only) officer present and thus they may have command over all NCMs present (up to and including CWO) - of course how they exercise that command would be the hallmark between a good future commissioned officer and one that becomes the hapless subject of an anecdote repeated in the mess.

I'm aware of numerous times when OCdts have been in charge simply because they were the senior rank present, sometimes by happenstance and sometimes because they were designated by a superior officer to take command of that element.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Tomato/tomahto.  Without a commission, there is no officer.

8)

Are you sure about that? 

https://army.ca/forums/threads/133368/post-1638650.html#msg1638650

I made the important parts yellow...so they stand out for you.  Don't forget to read (a) of the definition as well...

I'm here all night and starting Christmas Leave soon, if you're inclined to continue some more informal PD. 

 

[Weinie]

If that were true (in practice) we wouldn't have an inflated rank structure just so that xxxx is required because some other country has an xxxx level at that job.

If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard someone being insulted behind the scenes for "just being a Cpl."

As a former "just a Cpl." I never heard it once. My tech opinions/recommendations were valued, and followed, by Sr NCM's and/or Officers. Maybe I had a charmed early career. I have met Jr and Sr NCM's that were idiots, and others who were superior tradesmen and leaders; the same can be said for the Officers I worked with/encountered. After 37 + years of doing this, I respect rank as it applies, but I do not apply competency to rank.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

"just a Cpl."

I've actually heard the term used before; up to, and including, the rank of WO. 

 

[Weinie]

I've actually heard the term used before; up to, and including, the rank of WO.

I am not saying it wasn't used, I am saying that I never encountered it. My point being that rank does not/not equal competency.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Exactly! This is why we have near 60 year old ninja seal h2h tank driving throat slitting bazooka dicked Ocdt’s running the deep state regiment of SAS(NP)* commandos for the military. When one of those units breaks down, we all break down.


*Np - near puberty.

 

[Good2Golf]

Furthermore, Officers can be further broken into several sub-groups:
- General/Flag Officers
- Senior Officers
- Junior Officers
- Subordinate Officers: OCdt/NCdt

As well as:
- Warranted Officers and
- Non-commissioned Officers

But the point being that OCdts/NCdts are, as Blackadder1916 noted earlier, re: QR&Os, they are officers and can have duties of supervision assigned to them, which could include supervision of non-commissioned members.

Attitudes by others, incorrect as they may be, that OCdts (NCdts) are the lowest-of-the-low are not constructive and do not set appropriate conditions for positive relationships between commission and non-commissioned members later in their career.

Senior NCMs don’t get a warranted excuse to insult and denigrate a subordinate officer just because the former has more TI and the latter does not (yet) hold a Queen’s Commission.

Regards
G2G

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Exactly! This is why we have near 60 year old ninja seal h2h tank driving throat slitting bazooka dicked Ocdt’s running the deep state regiment of SAS(NP)* commandos for the military. When one of those units breaks down, we all break down.


*Np - near puberty.

It's been a long day...so I'd like to personally thank you for that.  :nod:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Furthermore, Officers can be broken into four sub-groups:

The suspense is killing me!!!!! 

(1) Kit-explosions

(2) Geographically-challenged

(3) Land Navigation Experiments

(4) Lt Ring, from Heartbreak Ridge

Am I close?

(I kid!  I kid!)

 

[Jarnhamar]

The way I look at it, is you salute the officer, not necessarily the man.

For sure. I'm not bent out of shape about it or anything.  CIC officer, flag, monument, car driving by with an officer on board, ship, rock with a plaque. All good. Orders are orders.

I think a lot of people let their ego get the better of them and especially get off on the idea of being saluted and see it as some form of the other person being submissive.

[quote author=Blackadder1916] However, circumstances can place an OCdt in a situation where they are the senior (usually only) officer present and thus they may have command over all NCMs present (up to and including CWO) -
[/quote]

That definitely seems archaic and a flaw in our system.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

That definitely seems archaic and a flaw in our system.

Well until the OR's learn to reed n right....