OCdt's vs. Senior NCO's Qualifications

[Quag]

Just a quick question that I searched for but couldn't find any answers.

I've heard time in and time out through numerous courses that an OCdt. whom finishes BOTP (Reg.....not sure if it's the same for PRes.) will have the equivalent leadership courses as a WO.

I kind of shrugged that off until this summer, as I was getting jacked up (one of the many times ), I was told by a Sgt. that seeing as to how I have WO leadership qualifications, I should be able to perform better (not sure if that's EXACTLY how it was said or the context used, but something along those lines).

Can anyone confirm or definitely rule this out?

Please don't turn this into a "WO's would skate circles around OCdt's in terms of leadership", because I know that that is true, given their immense experience.

I just want to know if "on paper" the qual's are similar.

Cheers
Quag

 

[Shamrock]

ILC allows SNCO's & Warrants whom CFR to bypass BOTP (which is its equivalent) but officer training is sort of bass ackwards.  CAP (Phase II) is the near equivalent to PLQ.  An armoured officer with BOTP isn't even qualified to spell tnak.

(Content subject to correction).

 

[George Wallace]

Quag

No.

You would only be credited as passing PLQ.

 

[Gunner]

I've heard time in and time out through numerous courses that an OCdt. whom finishes BOTP (Reg.....not sure if it's the same for PRes.) will have the equivalent leadership courses as a WO.

You are comparing apples and oranges...  The gist of the discussion really focuses on a Pl Comd vs a Pl WO, they can both lead a pl but, once again, what is required from each of them is different.

 

[DG-41]

Quag,

The names of courses have changed over the years, and so has some of the content, but the rough cut of this should be the same.

BOTC (drill and small party tasks) is effectively NCM Basic immediately followed by what used to be called JLC (Junior Leader's Course) which was the MCpl qualification course for non-combat arms trades.

With BOTC compete, you are more-or-less a purple trade MCpl without all the technical knowledge.

Phase 2 filled in some of the missing trade-specific skills, such that by the end of Phase 2, you were more-or-less a full MCpl (less all the practical experience)

By the end of Phase 4, you have had all the same leadership courses as a WO - in the Armoured Corps, it's the same material, with the emphasis changed slightly to fit the target audience.

Depending on your entry plan and what stage of your career progression you are in, any given Quarter Inch Admiral lies somewhere between MCpl and WO. By the time you hit Lt, you and your Tp WO are equally qualified.

The big difference is that he got his courses spread out over a lifetime and had time to learn and master each stage of his career before climbing the next rung of the ladder, where you get all your courses basically as fast as the Army can make you take them. You've passed the same tests and met the same standards, but he has 10-20 years of experience on you.

So there is a real "apples and oranges" problem here in terms of equivalency - but "on paper" you have the same qualifications as a WO once your pass Phase 4 and are promotable Lt.

DG

 

[rifleman]

All I can say is an NCO that has SLC (ILQ) and commissions is granted BOTP bypass. If they only have PLQ, they are given IAP bypass only. (this apparently accounts for the CF Leadership side)

As far as Trade knowledge, one still has to complete their phases. Its funny that you can have equivalency in Phase 2 and 3 but have to attend BOTP if you didn't complete your PLQ

 

[Quag]

Thanks a lot for the responses.

Judging by some of the first responses, I think I might have hit the funny bone of a couple of you.  I assure you this wasn't my intention.

I was simply wondering.

RecceDG, thanks very much for going into such detail.  I have a much broader understanding now.

As I mentioned before, the only reason I asked this was because of a Sgt. whom said that to me.  I didn't believe what I heard the whole time, but then started really questioning it after the Sgt. told me.

Thanks again.

 

[paracowboy]

.As I mentioned before, the only reason I asked this was because of a Sgt. whom said that to me.  I didn't believe what I heard the whole time, but then started really questioning it after the Sgt. told me.

he's trying to motivate you, and he'll use whatever tools he can get hold of to do it: pride, guilt, fear, rage...whatever he can find in you to employ. His job is to make you a leader of men, and he's only got 'x' amount of time before you're out here, responsible for people's lives, millions of dollars of equipment, and your nation's international standing at stake.

No pressure, mind you.

 

[Quag]

I can't say that I really believe in motivation using false statistics or fact. 

It's kind of deceiving in my books.  There are other ways to motivate.

Regardless, point proved.

Edited to add:
Pressure?!?!? Never felt that before

 

[geo]

quag
an OCdt goes thru his phase trg in the 1st year = is given basic leadership trg.... to a small degree equivalent to a section Commander (sgt)... It's only in later phase trg that the 2Lt gets training that will take him up +/- to the level of a WO... Troop level.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Qualification or equivalent training?  Two different things.  If referring only to a leadership qualification granted if you complete some portion of officer training, it would only be applicable when used as a prerequisite for promotion.  CFAO 49-4 refers
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-04_e.asp

36.    A member who has successfully completed one of the following shall be granted a JLC qualification:
    a.  a JLC;
    b.  Junior Non-commissioned Officer (NCO) Course (land);
    c.  Combat Leader Course (CLC);
    d.  Medical Assistant PL 5/QL5A Course conducted prior to 17 Jun 76;
    e.  Basic Officer Training Course (BOTC) that commenced on or after 9
          Sep 74;
    f.  Infantry Section Commander's Course; or
    g.  a SLC.

38.    A member who has successfully completed one of the following shall be
granted a SLC qualification:
    a.  a SLC; or
    b.  BOTC that commenced on or after 9 Sep 74 if the member held the
          appointment of MCpl or the rank of Sgt or above prior to
          commencement of BOTC training.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I was on a combined course. I was taking my Tp WO course and a bunch of young officers were taking their Tp Leader course. On each, I had a pass or fail trace , as either the Tp Ldr or the Tp WO. The officers were only marked as Tp Ldrs. After a number of the young, university types tried to fuck over the older Tp WO types, it came to a head. The Course Officer took all the new officer types aside and basically said "Don't fuck with these guys. Don't  ever forget for a minute, these guys (Tp WO) can do your job in a heartbeat, but, you'll never be able to do theirs in a lifetime".

We've spent 15-20 years learning our job, you won't get that..... in 8-12 weeks. We're there to help you, make sure you consult and utilise us. That's why we know our job.... and yours.

 

[geo]

Yup, as stated.... to a small degree.
Taught the material without the years of trade experience that goes behind it.
Young officers should be seen.... not heard (IMHO)

Best favor a unit CO can do is to pair off his new young officers with an experienced bunch of NCOs.... and best favor / recommendation I can give the young officer is to listen to what your Tp WO has to say..... you can make up your own mind after that - but you'll have all the facts ahead of time (instead of bumping into em one at a time)

 

[Quag]

Great!!  Thanks again for all the replies.  They are extremely beneficial, especially at this early stage in my career, however I know I will be forever learning throughout my career.

I know how you guys really like to push to listen to your SNCO's and WO's etc... and for good reason.  I know that they are filled with knowledge and skill that I will not accumulate in my career for many many many more years.  I will hope to use them to the fullest (while still doing MY job) for this information.

I have seen 2LT's and Lt's etc... that think they know everything and can do everything.  It p@sses me off to watch them throw out advice of the WO's etc...  However, revenge always comes in the form of them either screwing up royally and getting embarassed in front of the whole platoon, or getting breathed down on my a CO.  Regardless, these errors CANNOT be made in "in theatre" operations, or death to oneself, or even worse, your troops may occur.

In sum, I have my answers, and much more information that I am ever grateful for.

Thanks for your time guys!

I'm not sure if this warrants a thread hijack (which it definately is), but if anyone can answer this for me:

Is it proper for an OCdt. to come to attention to speak to a MCpl. (PRes.) at a reserve unit on a parade night.  I had to go to the reserve unit last night to settle some claims, and a MCpl. told me to come to attention and repeat his rank after everything I said.  I did, just for the benefit of the doubt, however after I was thinking:

1. I am not on course (and therefore considered an NCO).
2. Perhaps this MCpl. was just powertripping
3. My experience out of course has been that most MCpl.'s I have encountered have been extremely friendly, most of the time calling me Sir.  I have never been made to come to attention to one out of course.

Was I supposed to (and supposed to know) to come to attention to talk to a MCpl. out of course?

 

[Gunner]

Was I supposed to (and supposed to know) to come to attention to talk to a MCpl. out of course?

The situation you describe was very inappropriate.  Even as an OCdt, you outrank the MCpl.

 

[Rhibwolf]

I agree with Gunner on this.  Its pretty straight forward.  however, often when on a course (such as Basic Officer Trg, or Ph II etc) it is not uncommon to do the yes sir no sir three bags full sir.  BUT, even then, you can expect to be treated with respect from the NCO teaching you who should be calling you by rank or Mr/Miss etc.  Given your details, I suspect that this was not the case, and that fellow was due for a good jacking.  Next time, you make him come to to the chow etc...... If that doesnt work, enlist aid of fellow officer or his sgt.

 

[Shamrock]

That's one hard core claims section right there.  Did you have to rattle off your particulars before they'd allow you to approach the counter?

 

[radop215]

powertripping....

 

[Quag]

That's one hard core claims section right there.  Did you have to rattle off your particulars before they'd allow you to approach the counter?

No, not quite that extreme

I didn't mean for it to be a big deal, just seeking what was ACTUALLY proper.  Thanks for everyone's input!

 

[paracowboy]

It is a big deal! That sumbitch was way out of his lane, and seriously needs to be sorted out! Have him reported to his Sgt-Maj!





edited to take most of the vulgarity and vitriol out.
I hate bullies.