Office Production Paths - CFR or Bust?

[Navy_Pete]

The RCEME MGen who was razzing me once went very quiet when I observed that the RCEME home station should have been, at the time, Louis St Laurent.

There are multiple Ottawa centric occupations where the CAF needs to rethink the uniformed requirement.

I don't disagree, I'm one of them. I can very easily go until CRA 60 and move between LSTL, and wherever the PMOs are (would I want to is a different question). I go out to the C7 range to remind myself I'm still in the CAF, and plan the NBCD training out mid allergy season to clear out the sinuses, but otherwise essentially doing an Eng 5 job.

I like how some our allies do it, where they generate specialists, and basically just leave them in the specialist job as long as they want. Some of them are civvies, some of them are military, but we're one of the few that creates niche qualified people then bounces them around arbitrarily every few years just because.

I don't even have the option of going civvie and doing the weird niche job because there isn't a civvie position, even though we could keep 3 or 4 people with similar qual busy for the next 20 years (and I'm 1 of 2 with that niche qual).

The only good reason at this point not to go right to a civvie job is the 25 year annuity.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I think there are definitley some civilian workplace skills that would come in handy at certain rank levels, but if we have Senior Officers doing jobs that are better done by a civilian then we'd better pull them outta there and call it a civil service position ....

And don't know if it's better done by civilians, it's just that there are lots of jobs where rocking a cubicle and not actually doing anything where universality of service requirements actually apply.

The military experience and understanding of it is a huge asset, and sometimes really important for ensuring that you don't apply some kind of standard thing totally out of context (which happens frequently in people trying to use land based structure fire tactics on ships for example, in a way that is actually dangerous because the context is totally different).

But some jobs have a massive learning curve (2-3 years) so the typical posting cycle is just frankly dumb.

Leaving people in a job that long actually disadvantages them career wise, even if it provides very real tangible benefits, and doesn't result in things like major projects drastically changing course frequently because major decisions get revisited and changed.

So maybe a happy medium of having longer postings where it makes sense (and maybe even a longer turnover measured in months?). Especially when those positions require things like specific niche PGs and we generally suck at having someone in the hopper to backfill them.

 

[daftandbarmy]

And don't know if it's better done by civilians, it's just that there are lots of jobs where rocking a cubicle and not actually doing anything where universality of service requirements actually apply.

The military experience and understanding of it is a huge asset, and sometimes really important for ensuring that you don't apply some kind of standard thing totally out of context (which happens frequently in people trying to use land based structure fire tactics on ships for example, in a way that is actually dangerous because the context is totally different).

But some jobs have a massive learning curve (2-3 years) so the typical posting cycle is just frankly dumb.

Leaving people in a job that long actually disadvantages them career wise, even if it provides very real tangible benefits, and doesn't result in things like major projects drastically changing course frequently because major decisions get revisited and changed.

So maybe a happy medium of having longer postings where it makes sense (and maybe even a longer turnover measured in months?). Especially when those positions require things like specific niche PGs and we generally suck at having someone in the hopper to backfill them.

Alot of HQ jobs, like CBG HQs etc, could likely be done by well trained civilian clerical staff e.g., pay and benefits, claims and other financial transactions, as well as a host of HR and other, EA/Admin roles.

Ops and training roles, not so much., although it doesn't take an experienced Capt/WO to call someone and make training area/ range bookings...

 

[Halifax Tar]

Now if I could just understand why finance staff are involved in the MM side of DRMIS????? Is it really that hard for the supply oops mean material management to figure it out? 3 years ago I could only give it to the QL5 supply tech now I am supposed to have cbt arms playing FSA do it.

Ya that is a bit weird. The relationship on ship of Fin and MM on ship is basically CC reconciliations and processing the financial impact of material write-offs.

And our FSAs only have DRMIS Fin side. Even the LogOs generally stick in the Fin in DRMIS leave the MM side to the Snr Storesman.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Alot of HQ jobs, like CBG HQs etc, could likely be done by well trained civilian clerical staff e.g., pay and benefits, claims and other financial transactions, as well as a host of HR and other, EA/Admin roles.

Ops and training roles, not so much., although it doesn't take an experienced Capt/WO to call someone and make training area/ range bookings...

Id happily retire into the 36 CBG G4 Sup role as a civi. I'd even join the Svc Bn to help out there on my own time as well.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Id happily retire into the 36 CBG G4 Sup role as a civi. I'd even join the Svc Bn to help out there on my own time as well.

And I'm guessing there are thousands like you who, for want of being invited, will never be able to help out

 

[Halifax Tar]

And I'm guessing there are thousands like you who, for want of being invited, will never be able to help out

It came pretty close last year. All needed was the letter of offer, to a PS job, and I was in the Army Reserve.

 

[dapaterson]

Id happily retire into the 36 CBG G4 Sup role as a civi. I'd even join the Svc Bn to help out there on my own time as well.

I know people...

 

[Navy_Pete]

Alot of HQ jobs, like CBG HQs etc, could likely be done by well trained civilian clerical staff e.g., pay and benefits, claims and other financial transactions, as well as a host of HR and other, EA/Admin roles.

Ops and training roles, not so much., although it doesn't take an experienced Capt/WO to call someone and make training area/ range bookings...

I guess for context I mean very specific technical kind of jobs, but probably would also apply to more detail orientated supply jobs as well on the logistics side or financial side where there is a set of rules and standards, and then actually doing things that makes sense for the CAF within them.

For the Navy, the 3 PMOs, and the EGPM have a lot of the LCdr - Cdr jobs for naval technical officers, and is a mix of some specific technical niches, general contracting/QC and all the other things that go into supporting/building/delivering ships. With things like sub replacement on the horizon in general those are almost all Ottawa based jobs, and is a huge centre of gravity for the trade.

Those are all mix of military and civilian staff, but I guess what I had in mind when I meant when talking about longer postings (if the person wanted to). Some of the specific positions are soul sucking, thankless nightmares so YMMV, but sending someone off to do some kind of 2 year PG on radars, ammo, fire control, damage control etc, then sticking them in the sponsor position for a year or 2 before posting them to jobs where they don't touch that specialist knowledge again doesn't really seem like a good ROI.

One easy example; getting ships built to commercial standards. Standard commercial firemain design, based on civilain context, doesn't actually work because we do offensive firefighting and have some more advanced hose handling that doesn't use constant water streams. This is pretty obvious if you are a sailor trained in our FF, but if you are just ticking a box for class society looks fine, so an engineer off the street wouldn't know that. Stuff like that is why we have CAF folks as part of projects, but it takes a while to get comfortable in the job before you even notice things like that.

So obvious benefits for the operational side, as the tech staff on the PMO considers real world context, so getting to IOC/FOC should generally be easier (assuming comments on the design review actually result in changes vice being ignored).

It's also pretty normal to bounce back and forth between the coasts, MEPM and the PMOs for NTOs, but with the CoL and housing these days, it's unpalatable for a lot of people, especially if you lose money once or twice on a move to bounce around if staying in a geolocation is an option.

 

[CountDC]

Alot of HQ jobs, like CBG HQs etc, could likely be done by well trained civilian clerical staff e.g., pay and benefits, claims and other financial transactions, as well as a host of HR and other, EA/Admin roles.

Ops and training roles, not so much., although it doesn't take an experienced Capt/WO to call someone and make training area/ range bookings...

Absolutely a lot of those can, have been and in some cases are still done by civilian staff. The sections should be a mix though as you do need places to rotate the military members through plus it can build good relations between the 2 sides. Having them as pure civilian or pure military sections is a big mistake to me.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Absolutely a lot of those can, have been and in some cases are still done by civilian staff. The sections should be a mix though as you do need places to rotate the military members through plus it can build good relations between the 2 sides. Having them as pure civilian or pure military sections is a big mistake to me.

And then we can downsize expensive organizations like ARes CBG HQs from 'pretend Bde HQs' to what they really are: Army post offices and G3/G4 coordination cells that could be adequately run by a full time Major and a small staff.

 

[dimsum]

And then we can downsize expensive organizations like ARes CBG HQs from 'pretend Bde HQs' to what they really are: Army post offices and G3/G4 coordination cells that could be adequately run by a full time Major and a small staff.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

And with the inclusion of Reserve Restructure this thread has checked-off the entire Army.ca bingo card.

I counted the Star Trek red-shirt as counting for dress - maybe that was offside?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

And with the inclusion of Reserve Restructure this thread has checked-off the entire Army.ca bingo card.

I counted the Star Trek red-shirt as counting for dress - maybe that was offside?

No, I think it counted.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Coming Up From The Ranks

If you have a little bit of knowledge
But can't be arsed to attend a college,
Maybe there's a scheme that you can try.

Hang around long enough,
Collect your pay and do some stuff,
Wait until your arse begins to sag.

Then one day, you raise your hand
And say you want to head the band.
'Cause leading men is what you really know.

Your knuckles don't drag, and nor do you drool,
But you learned your craft without a finishing school,
Unlike the ones who wore a silly hat.

So, they take you at your word,
And now they let you wear a sword.
But in your heart, and in 'their' minds,
You'll always be a Man.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Coming Up From The Ranks

If you have a little bit of knowledge
But can't be arsed to attend a college,
Maybe there's a scheme that you can try.

Hang around long enough,
Collect your pay and do some stuff,
Wait until your arse begins to sag.

Then one day, you raise your hand
And say you want to head the band.
'Cause leading men is what you really know.

Your knuckles don't drag, and nor do you drool,
But you learned your craft without a finishing school,
Unlike the ones who wore a silly hat.

So, they take you at your word,
And now they let you wear a sword.
But in your heart, and in 'their' minds,
You'll always be a Man.

'The 'Eathen' enters the chat

Poetry Lovers' Page - Rudyard Kipling: The 'eathen