Offr-NCO-NCM Relationships - Mess Dinners
- Thread starter Michael OLeary
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I'm not certain that this is the case. I seem to recall (dimly) that provincial liquor laws were not actually enforceable on federal (read DND) property. DND chooses to follow provincial liquor regulations, including licensing, as a courtesy to each provincial government and because it makes for a uniform standard within the province, but has no legal obligation to do so. In practise, should a provincial liquor inspector not require consent from the Base Commander before entering the Defence Establishment to make an inspection? Would his/her findings even be legally binding on the Crown?
The last mess that I was a part of the executive for (in Pembroke, On) had a photo copy of a license issued to the Base Commander of CFB Petawawa. The one license was good for all messes and institutes within the CFB Petawawa area, I seem to recall. There never seemed to be any real thought that a liquor inspector would "drop by" someday for an inspection.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't follow the Provincial Laws, but are we (DND) Obligated to do so?
I searched Dept Of Justice's website and couldn't find much of use, other than some general ideas that provinces do not have much, if any jurisdiction on Native Reserves- Reserves being creatures of the Federal Government. That alone implies an answer...
The reason that I even all of this up is, It may well be a good idea for our Bar Staff to have "serve it right training", but is it a legally binding requirement? Any lawyers out there that can set me straight? I may have recalled this all incorrectly...
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I heard that before that we have to follow Canadian Law (Federal) But the only reason we follow the provincial law is so we look good in the media eyes
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I know that I was only 17 [a long time ago mind you] when I was at Cornwallis and I was able to drink....
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http://www.smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/027-12_e.asp
CFAO 27-12 seems to provide a partial answer to my own rhetoric question- namely that CO's or Base Commanders must ensure the Bar Staff are "appropriately" trained. Still can't find the licensing stuff...
CFAO 27-12 seems to provide a partial answer to my own rhetoric question- namely that CO's or Base Commanders must ensure the Bar Staff are "appropriately" trained. Still can't find the licensing stuff...
Aerobicrunner
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The Mess Administration Manual (A-AD-262-000/AG-000) available here:
http://otgmati000041.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/custom/cfpd/index_e.htm#
states the following in Chapter 3, para 29:
"With the respect to the serving and consumption of intoxicants, the BComd shall ensure that:
a. federal, provincial and municipal laws are observed;
b. credit sales are not permitted except where the accounting function is exclusively performed by personnel from non public sources, or in honour bars;
c. current selling price lists are posted in a prominent place in the bar."
http://otgmati000041.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/custom/cfpd/index_e.htm#
states the following in Chapter 3, para 29:
"With the respect to the serving and consumption of intoxicants, the BComd shall ensure that:
a. federal, provincial and municipal laws are observed;
b. credit sales are not permitted except where the accounting function is exclusively performed by personnel from non public sources, or in honour bars;
c. current selling price lists are posted in a prominent place in the bar."
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Also doesn't say anything about licensing...
Aerobicrunner
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Well I guess we will have a difference of opinion in regards to how the sentence is structured and how each individual interprets the meaning. When I check the good ole Canadian Oxford Dictionary and look up "respect" in terms of the context that the mess manual uses, it is described as "1. reference, relation 2. heed or regard". However, the sentence in the Mess Admin manual does not read as you have paraphased it but rather "... the BComd shall ensure that: federal, provincial, and municipal laws are observed."
Woe be thee for the BComd who did not follow the rules prescribed by the provincial licensing act with the excuse that he/she chose not to follow one rule or another proscribed in the act.
The following is an excerpt from the Alberta Liquor Act:
Inspection of premises and facilities
103(1) To ensure compliance with this Act, an inspector may enter and inspect, at any reasonable time,
(a) licensed premises and licensed facilities;
(b) unlicensed premises and unlicensed facilities where gaming activities have been, are or will be conducted;
(c) premises with respect to which a liquor licence has expired or been suspended or cancelled;
(d) a facility with respect to which a facility licence has expired or been suspended or cancelled;
(e) the offices of a common carrier doing business in Alberta that may contain records and documents relating to liquor stored or transported in Alberta.
(2) An inspector may enter and inspect, at any reasonable time, premises or facilities described in an application for a licence to determine if the premises or facilities meet the requirements of this Act.
(3) When acting under the authority of this section, an inspector must carry identification in the form established by the board and present it on request to the owner or occupant of the premises or facility being inspected.
(4) In carrying out an inspection relating to liquor, a liquor licence or licensed premises, an inspector may
(a) take reasonable samples of liquor from the licensee or any person in the licensed premises,
(b) inspect, audit, examine and make copies of any records, documents, books of account and receipts relating to liquor, a liquor licence or licensed premises, or may temporarily remove any of them for those purposes,
(c) interview the licensee or agents of the licensee with regard to any of the records, documents, books of account and receipts,
(d) interview and request identification from any person who appears to be a minor who is found in the licensed premises, or a person who appears to be a minor who is found outside the licensed premises if the inspector has reasonable grounds to believe that the person is contravening or has contravened this Act,
(e) interview and request identification from any person who appears to be intoxicated in licensed premises or who is found in the licensed premises after the sale and consumption of liquor have been required to cease under the regulations, or a person who is found outside the licensed premises if the inspector has reasonable grounds to believe that the person is contravening or has contravened this Act, and
(f) seize identification from any person interviewed in accordance with this subsection if the inspector has reasonable grounds to believe that the identification is false or has been altered.
Woe be thee for the BComd who did not follow the rules prescribed by the provincial licensing act with the excuse that he/she chose not to follow one rule or another proscribed in the act.
The following is an excerpt from the Alberta Liquor Act:
Inspection of premises and facilities
103(1) To ensure compliance with this Act, an inspector may enter and inspect, at any reasonable time,
(a) licensed premises and licensed facilities;
(b) unlicensed premises and unlicensed facilities where gaming activities have been, are or will be conducted;
(c) premises with respect to which a liquor licence has expired or been suspended or cancelled;
(d) a facility with respect to which a facility licence has expired or been suspended or cancelled;
(e) the offices of a common carrier doing business in Alberta that may contain records and documents relating to liquor stored or transported in Alberta.
(2) An inspector may enter and inspect, at any reasonable time, premises or facilities described in an application for a licence to determine if the premises or facilities meet the requirements of this Act.
(3) When acting under the authority of this section, an inspector must carry identification in the form established by the board and present it on request to the owner or occupant of the premises or facility being inspected.
(4) In carrying out an inspection relating to liquor, a liquor licence or licensed premises, an inspector may
(a) take reasonable samples of liquor from the licensee or any person in the licensed premises,
(b) inspect, audit, examine and make copies of any records, documents, books of account and receipts relating to liquor, a liquor licence or licensed premises, or may temporarily remove any of them for those purposes,
(c) interview the licensee or agents of the licensee with regard to any of the records, documents, books of account and receipts,
(d) interview and request identification from any person who appears to be a minor who is found in the licensed premises, or a person who appears to be a minor who is found outside the licensed premises if the inspector has reasonable grounds to believe that the person is contravening or has contravened this Act,
(e) interview and request identification from any person who appears to be intoxicated in licensed premises or who is found in the licensed premises after the sale and consumption of liquor have been required to cease under the regulations, or a person who is found outside the licensed premises if the inspector has reasonable grounds to believe that the person is contravening or has contravened this Act, and
(f) seize identification from any person interviewed in accordance with this subsection if the inspector has reasonable grounds to believe that the identification is false or has been altered.
E
Ed Gagnon
Guest
Hi folks,
In Petawawa we follow the provincial laws with respect to a liquor license as directed by Comd LFCA. Over the past ten years we have really tightened up all the alcohol related activities taking place within the base. All serveres are Smart Serve trained and we have a current liquor license.
Strictly speaking, a federal organization does not have to subjugate itself to a provincial organization. In effect, the province cannot force the federal government to get a liquor license. However. we do this out of curtousy to the provincial government. It also keeps everyone in line in terms of following generally the same guidelines.
As for the practice of using soldiers to serve at mess dinners, I did this on several occassions in the Militia and only remember it as a good experience. The practice has been discontinued as we were using public resources (soldiers) to serve a non-public function as servers.
Ed Gagnon
PSP Manager
CFB Petawawa
In Petawawa we follow the provincial laws with respect to a liquor license as directed by Comd LFCA. Over the past ten years we have really tightened up all the alcohol related activities taking place within the base. All serveres are Smart Serve trained and we have a current liquor license.
Strictly speaking, a federal organization does not have to subjugate itself to a provincial organization. In effect, the province cannot force the federal government to get a liquor license. However. we do this out of curtousy to the provincial government. It also keeps everyone in line in terms of following generally the same guidelines.
As for the practice of using soldiers to serve at mess dinners, I did this on several occassions in the Militia and only remember it as a good experience. The practice has been discontinued as we were using public resources (soldiers) to serve a non-public function as servers.
Ed Gagnon
PSP Manager
CFB Petawawa
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Bruce Monkhouse said:
Not me.I was 17 in the rcd and recall many times where me and a few of my buddy's were instructed not to drink. :
:old enough to die not to drink.
I also recall during one squadron function in B sqn we had troopers acually get smart served to help out the one bar tender we had.It was a two day course I believe.
