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Offr-NCO-NCM Relationships
- Thread starter Pikache
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Much appreciated, that answered all the questions I had.
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i always felt that professionalism only went so far, that is why the seperation existed. for those who couldnt be professional and revert back to the 'sir' or warrant the day after the booze fest.
Us jimmies in calgary used to throw our ocdts to the troops as well, it lasted for a couple of years not sure if they still do it. i thought it was a great way for our soon to be leadership to understand the hardships that we go through.
now that ive been static for 3 years (thankfully returning to a field unit this summer) i have found that first names will happen on a day to day basis. some cpl/ptes address officers on a first name basis and the officers dont correct them. i have corrected them reminding them that they are still in the army, whether they are fixing the G1s computer or not. im a firm believer in what everyone else have said: familiarity breeds contempt. there is a time and place for everything, but the young guns still need to learn that the seperation exists.
my 2 cents.
Us jimmies in calgary used to throw our ocdts to the troops as well, it lasted for a couple of years not sure if they still do it. i thought it was a great way for our soon to be leadership to understand the hardships that we go through.
now that ive been static for 3 years (thankfully returning to a field unit this summer) i have found that first names will happen on a day to day basis. some cpl/ptes address officers on a first name basis and the officers dont correct them. i have corrected them reminding them that they are still in the army, whether they are fixing the G1s computer or not. im a firm believer in what everyone else have said: familiarity breeds contempt. there is a time and place for everything, but the young guns still need to learn that the seperation exists.
my 2 cents.
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radop215 said:
I think it's equal parts "I don't want to sound like a jerk" and "this guy is my age, we should be buddies." I can't really think of a way someone with one bar (or one and a half) can talk to a Cpl with more time in than said officer, and tell him "that's Lieutenant for you, Corporal" or such without looking like he's full of himself.
I think that the younger NCMs (and young officers) haven't been taught where the line is and where they should draw it, and that causes confusion. There is some measure of word-of-mouth, this-is-how-it's-done advice given, but no formal information given as to how one is expected to act.
I'd assume the problem is even worse for us RMC types, as the only NCMs we encounter on a regular basis are instructors and are treated as superiors. The other problem being that most NCOs on campus are that much older that we wouldn't hang out with them in the first place, whereas when we get to our unit, we'll have guys and girls our age under our command and we'll most likely feel more at ease with them than with the other officers, who will often be older and more experienced.
I don't think I can throw in my two cents, so consider that my free opinion... and you get what you pay for.
Blackadder1916
Army.ca Fixture
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Frederik G said:
If an officer initiates the use of first names or permits a NCM to be overly familiar, that officer has only himself to blame if he is then unable to establish a professional relationship with a subordinate. If it is a Cpl who initiates the use of first names when talking with an officer (or Snr NCO), then he is at fault along with the the superior who does not correct him. However that Cpl may have potential, so make note of him. It remains to be seen whether the potential is to rise to higher rank (including commissioning and someday outranking you) or to be a continuing pain in the arse. Can you be friendly (or even friends) with someone of junior or senior rank? Of course you can, but do you really base your "buddies" only on similarity of ages.
As for "sounding like a jerk", a lot of things that you say during that phase of your career will make you sound like a jerk (or less than intelligent), it won't stand out as being unusual. If you are hesitant to say anything directly to the Cpl, try speaking to his direct supervisor (MCpl/Sgt) and bring his attention to the problem. While the Cpl may be corrected, you'll still sound like a jerk (plus an ineffectual leader) to the NCO. You said it yourself "guys and girls our age under our command"; the important part of that is 'under command'.
This must be the first time that I have ever heard an RMC type say that NCOs make him feel inferior. It's probably true but you should not let them know that. They will only make more jokes about you behind your back. I once assumed that the problem would be greater for officers who had been in the ranks prior to commissioning, especially when many of your subordinates were formally friends, acquaintances and colleagues. However I found that despite a change in the circumstances of the professional relationship, friends remained friends, those who had disliked me before still disliked me and most everyone performed their duty as was expected.
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blackadder1916 said:
They don't make me feel inferior, that is NOT what I said. I said they are treated as superiors, as in higher in the hierarchy, not as betters. Just like those staff on IAP and BOTC were superiors; some we looked down upon, some we looked up to, but they all had authority on us.
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Frederik G said:
I had a LS I worked with prior to my appointment tried that lower than whale_s#$% crap, I then pointed out the definition of Officer ind the NDA and QR&O's as well as proper forms of address ine both the unit standing orders and the honours, and heritage structure for the CF, the of course the CWO took him down the hall for a chat. My uncle was a reg force CDR when I got in and I never called him by his christian name at work. It would have put both of us in an awkward position. Officers and Sr NCO's must nip this type of familiarity in the bud early or it causes problems later on.
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aesop081
Guest
ArtyNewbie said:
Back when i was army, i would have agreed 100%.......now i would say that it very much depends on the environment. On a 10-man Aurora crew, first names are SOP and i dont see any breakdown in discipline. Granted the crowd tends to be more mature, everyone knows their job and knows who the boss is. When everyone lives in the same hotels, drinks and parties together, ranks disapear pretty quick. That being said, there is still a line, which i personaly draw at Major and the CO.
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I'll give you that
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aesop081
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ArtyNewbie said:
Besides....why else would our first names be on our name tags
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so you remember how to spell them, it's easier than grabbing your wallet out of your flight suit.
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jimmy742
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As stated by others earlier, everything depends on the environment. A small unit is normally more familiar, especially if the people are older. The COs I had insisted we call them by their first name. It was "sir" outside the unit for the sake of visibility. We rarely called our Lieutenant "sir" unless on parade. This was at his own request. Perhaps being on an air force base made the difference. The one exception to all of this was my last SSM. I think even his wife and kids call him "sir".
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I think it may be a bit different for Reserves and Reg F as well, at the current time and situation, if a Res Pte is Buddy's with his PL comd, I do not see the big deal, as chances are if, if that Pte volunteers for a tour, he is going to be alone (I.e. not deploying as a formed unit with his Res unit, but as an individual augmentee) and put into a PL, Coy and BN he has never been to before. So the fact he was buddys with his normal PL comd, does not affect the whole problem of giving orders to your buddy, since his PL comd on tour is going to be a Reg F officer he never met.
How about in between officers, in situations that are not combat related at all (Say the Orderly room at a res unit or clothing stores or a group of CIC officers?) Does it really matter there if a 1 stripe calls a 1.5 stripe Tom instead of S/Lt Bloggins?
I think it all comes down to when and where.
How about in between officers, in situations that are not combat related at all (Say the Orderly room at a res unit or clothing stores or a group of CIC officers?) Does it really matter there if a 1 stripe calls a 1.5 stripe Tom instead of S/Lt Bloggins?
I think it all comes down to when and where.
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That is a pretty weak argument. If you will never deploy with this person its not an issue?rz350 said:
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Not quite, my bigger point is that it may not be 100% cut and dry. (I know the book says it is, and I do not encourage anyone to break to rules) but more what I was trying to say, in a round about way, is use common sense and good judgement.
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Did YOU ever call your PlComd by their first names? I know I didn't, and if one of my troops did they would have a talking to by the RSM or PlWO. It doesn't matter if I came from the ranks and most of the troops knew me in my previous life ( a good one I might add), it is just not correct for a Pte/Cpl to address me or any other officers by their first names.
Yes, it is not cut and dry. However, a level of military discipline still must exist. One of these things is the proper address of your superiors and your subordinates. Currently more and more reserve units are sending large number of soldiers overseas. You cannot say for sure that your PlComd wont be the same one you worked for at your parent unit. I agree with Spring_bok that your argument is quite weak.
I think we have already blasted the topic of forms of address between NCMs and Officers and Officers and Officers in the thread of Proper Behaviour for OCdts.
Also, agreed with everyone else's point that different organizations work differently. An integral team such as a Trauma Team for us in the medical field, the NO or Doc may ask you to address them by their first names or nicknames. That is because it's a close knit team like the one jimmy742 had described. However, I believe once again, that proper discipline should be observed, and when the time calls for it, informality is okay too.
Just my two rupees.
Yes, it is not cut and dry. However, a level of military discipline still must exist. One of these things is the proper address of your superiors and your subordinates. Currently more and more reserve units are sending large number of soldiers overseas. You cannot say for sure that your PlComd wont be the same one you worked for at your parent unit. I agree with Spring_bok that your argument is quite weak.
I think we have already blasted the topic of forms of address between NCMs and Officers and Officers and Officers in the thread of Proper Behaviour for OCdts.
Also, agreed with everyone else's point that different organizations work differently. An integral team such as a Trauma Team for us in the medical field, the NO or Doc may ask you to address them by their first names or nicknames. That is because it's a close knit team like the one jimmy742 had described. However, I believe once again, that proper discipline should be observed, and when the time calls for it, informality is okay too.
Just my two rupees.
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I've got to go with medtech on this one, and trust me the two of us blasted this apart in another thread - with oposing opinions no less. It doesn't matter if that PLComd actually commands the Pte in the field or not, the reserves is not cadets, it is a manning pool for the reg force (my words) but truthfully the primary function of the reserve is to provide 20% backfill for the reg force so you have a 1 in 5 chance of serving with another mbr from your reserve unit. Also the CLS new policy on component transfers for those reservists serving in afghanistan (direct CT in the rank the mbr held in theatre) means more and more reservists will go overseas reserve and come home regular. The rules are there for a reason, as for informality and informal forms of address we have a pub that deals with that too, Heritage and Honours Structure for the Canadian Forces (not sure of the CFP# it's on my home drive and I aint at work)
. Yah, we've blasted it to kingdom come and then some 
