Oh no,another Neverendum Referendum

[Jungle]

This is CFLS though, not CFLRS.  Different CoC....

... not much would come out of reporting something like this to the CFLS CoC in St-Jean.

Roger... my bad.

Cheers !!

 

[Flip]

Mud Recce Man,

Thanks but I don't think so.
Too many contentious issues.
The primary issue really is ethnic nationalism.

The myth that a successful separation would be simply a matter of paper work and hugs and hand shakes all round needs to be addres ed.

No I don't think we would repeat the Yugo tragedy - But that wasn't foreseen either.

A 50% +1  vote would naturally result in 49% unhappy with the result.
Some of the 49% are going to be every bit as passionate as some of the 51%

The sovereigntist side has sold the whole thing as an easy passage into something
glorious and new. A negotiated happy ending. - No one is that smooth.

The Canadian federal government needs to spell out EXACTLY what
the republic of Quebec's financial and legal obligations would be
and what it would cost them in dollars and cents.  Further, the federal
government would stop the flow of dollars from the rest of Canada.

Once it's clear that Ottawa wouldn't underwrite the whole enterprize, I think
a referendum would be more honest.

I know a guy who thought he would leave his wife - until a lawyer explained
his obligations and the division of assets.  Now he's nice to her again!

This is a lot like another thread - I would like to read the article that "what if " thread
refers to.

 

[FredDaHead]

I haven't really been made to feel welcome as a fellow Canadian in the SJ area...so why not let them separate...

Oh boo-fucking-oo. You think us Quebecois who go to St-Jean are made to feel welcome? Wake up. We’re made to feel like traitors to Quebec. And when I’m in Kingston, I’m not made to feel welcome as a fellow Canadian, either. Does that mean we should let Ontario go, too? After all, when some people in a province aren't nice to people from another province, we have to let them go, right?

+1 RMR, Been there done that, five years in Bagotville.  Couldn't wait to get the hell out. This isn't news to all the Anglos who have lived in Quebec for generations, a lot of them have given up and moved to Ontario. Language laws, language police and school restrictions made it quite clear that live for an Anglo in the PQ Quebec will be difficult. "Pure laine"  is the preferred background for success in business. The Quebec economy is in serious financial trouble, politicans don't want to address the problem rather they want to get elected.
As you say there are positives, I still follow the French media print and TV.
I could go on but  for any Anglo posted to Quebec there definitely are problems to deal with on a daily basis.
And yes I am retired so I don't have to keep a smiley face on this issue.

Good writeup Sgt Cpl. 

You think francos in, say, Ontario (or any other anglo province) have it any easier? Hell no. The only reason I don’t get hassled more is because I speak English with an accent that, although it sounds weird, doesn’t sound French.

You make it sound like there’s a fricking apartheid in Quebec. Maybe people in Quebec don’t like Anglos living there because you guys just assume you don’t have to learn/speak French? When Francos move to anglo provinces, we have to learn English just so we can do the most basic tasks. I’m pretty sure if I start going around Kingston speaking only French, I won’t be much better off than an Anglo going around Quebec without speaking French. In fact, I'll probably get arrested for creating a disturbance.

This referendum noise actually terrifies me.
I don't see any upside for anyone.

I see Quebec separatism as an ethnic nationalism, much like the serbs in Yugoslavia.
I needn't say more. No upside for Quebec.

Even if they could separate - the rest of Canada becomes the big bad imperialist power.
No upside for us.

The economic and political cost would be ruinous-for everyone.
The personal and human cost would be beyond our current comprehension.

Yes the natives living in Quebec would play a pivotal role in the whole thing.
The rest of us would be obliged to support them.

At best I see Quebec in economic ruin and Ottawa spending billions to keep it on life support.

The Federal government needs to spell out what Canadas terms would be to "free Quebec".

Do you have some kind of degree in Canadian politics? Have you lived in Quebec for an extensive period of time? I doubt you understand very much, if anything, about Quebec.

I gotta love how you compare French people to the Serbs. I guess Anglos are like the White folks in South Africa, keeping the Francos down instead of the Black people. After all, pretty much all the rich people in Canada are English. Yeah, doesn't fly either, does it?

Considering Quebec was a cash cow for Ottawa for years and got screwed over countless times… I don’t necessarily see it as a bad thing that Ottawa would have to bail them out.

Besides, Canada can’t dictate the terms for a “free Quebec.” If Quebec wants to separate and become a country, they can do that, and Canada won’t be able to do anything about it. Remember, Quebec didn’t ratify the Constitution, so  they’re not bound by it.

--

On an overall note, I think you Anglos need to realize how Francos who live in anglo provinces have it before you start whining about how Quebec is evil and there’s some kind of apartheid. It’s really sickening to see the amount of one-sided bullcrap being spewed in this thread. Open your eyes, realize what the situation is, think about how the other guy feels and then, maybe, you can comment. Just bitching about how an English-speaking-only person doesn't get treated like a superhero in Quebec isn't helping and is rather idiotic, as a French-speaking-only person doesn't get treated well in Ontario, either.

 

[Flip]

My apologies. Frederick

My intent wasn't to offend.
I have many friends and family members from Quebec as well as other french speaking parts of the country.

I have no beef with french speaking Canadians - at all.

My problem is with separatists.

We even have a few here in Alberta.

The proposition of separation seems preposterous to me. Especially in the birthplace of this great country.

My point is simply that I don't think separation of any province can be called a happy ending.

These are just my opinions - No reflection on anyone else.

 

[observor 69]

Frederik G

Read my comments carefully. I stand by every one of them.
Ref learning English. Gen. Hillier just changed Can Force policy on Anglos taking second language training. Take the time to read the rational behind it.
"Do you have some kind of degree in Canadian politics?" Yes
Yes,  I did spend time in Quebec, five years in Bagotville/Lac St.Jean area.
And yes Quebec is running itself into an economic hole. Hydro Quebec and Ottawa can't bail the province's social programs out forever.

 

[mudrecceman]

Mud Recce Man,

Thanks but I don't think so.

Roger, thought maybe I had misread.  Just checking.

 

[FredDaHead]

Ref learning English. Gen. Hillier just changed Can Force policy on Anglos taking second language training. Take the time to read the rational behind it.

Just because the policy changed doesn't mean the mentality has changed. The prevailing mentality among Anglos (especially those coming from places west of Ontario) is that French people just have to learn English; Anglos shouldn't have to learn French, because nobody speaks it anyway. Just look at RMC; most Francos earn their Bs in no time, whereas Anglos barely get their Bs in time to graduate.

I'll stand by my comment that slagging French people in Quebec for not liking English people is rather idiotic, considering the demeanor of many said English people, and the way French people are treated outside Quebec.

 

[Roy Harding]

Just because the policy changed doesn't mean the mentality has changed. The prevailing mentality among Anglos (especially those coming from places west of Ontario) is that French people just have to learn English; Anglos shouldn't have to learn French, because nobody speaks it anyway. Just look at RMC; most Francos earn their Bs in no time, whereas Anglos barely get their Bs in time to graduate.

...

Frederick:

I think you are painting with a rather broad brush - the same thing you are accusing others of doing.

For what it's worth - my family has it's Canadian roots in Montreal (Lachine, and St Hubert) - my own parents moved to Alberta when I was a wee kid.  I am a product of the Alberta education system of the '60s and '70s - and no, I don't speak French.

However, ALL my relatives who are still in Quebec DO speak French (as do my parents, who grew up there) - and we're a pretty "anglo" bunch (English, Scottish, Irish ancestry).

Should I move to Quebec, or France, or Haiti - I'll take it as a given that I need to learn French.  Should I move to Brazil, I'll learn Portuguese, should I move to Germany, German - and etcetera.  I think the same consideration needs to be made if YOU move to Alberta, or Saskatchewan, or British Columbia - the language of the majority IN THAT PARTICULAR LOCALE will ALWAYS dictate the language needed to get along.

Take care of yourself,

Roy

 

[orange.paint]

I won't be much better off than an Anglo going around Quebec without speaking French. In fact, I'll probably get arrested for creating a disturbance.

Tad excessive don't you think?Will the gestapo get you?

 

[FredDaHead]

Roy, I agree that it's the way things SHOULD be, I'm just saying the way things are, it doesn't work.  I'm not enough of an asshole (no, really, I'm not) to try it, but those guys I know who came to RMC and didn't speak English, didn't exactly get treated well when they went in town and tried to get around without speaking English.

My main argument was that if Francos are treated that way in English-speaking provinces, Anglos shouldn't expect any different from Quebec. The rest just spun off that, like there are always spinoffs of good things. (And spinoffs of bad things, like that Joey show.)

EX_RCAC, I wasn't being fully serious about getting arrested, but I'm damn sure I couldn't go around Ontario speaking only French.

 

[Roy Harding]

Roy, I agree that it's the way things SHOULD be, I'm just saying the way things are, it doesn't work.  I'm not enough of an asshole (no, really, I'm not) to try it, but those guys I know who came to RMC and didn't speak English, didn't exactly get treated well when they went in town and tried to get around without speaking English.

My main argument was that if Francos are treated that way in English-speaking provinces, Anglos shouldn't expect any different from Quebec. The rest just spun off that, like there are always spinoffs of good things. (And spinoffs of bad things, like that Joey show.)
...

And I think I agreed with you, Frederik.

This can be an emotional subject - and rightly so - it goes to the roots of an individuals' identity.  I don't think you're an "asshole" - I think you MAY have got carried away with your "broad brush" - that's all.

You're right - things AREN'T always the way they SHOULD be - what do you suggest we do about it?  (I haven't the foggiest idea - which makes me open to suggestions.)

Take care,

Roy

 

[FredDaHead]

We should create the Canadian Academy of Language and create our own language that everyone would have to speak! That way, we'd all just be Canadians!

Wouldn't that be great?

 

[Roy Harding]

We should create the Canadian Academy of Language and create our own language that everyone would have to speak! That way, we'd all just be Canadians!

Wouldn't that be great?

Esperanto anyone?

Roy

 

[orange.paint]

OK well this is from a anglophones point of view with absolutely no ties to Quebec.
I never learned french after grade 7 where it stopped being mandatory in our school system.Until I was a trooper in Petawawa did I realise I really should have learned french when 5 troopers were put into my troop who knew" yes","no" and"toaster".Our Mcpl a ex 12 RBC guy suggested that us Anglos help them out with their English and vice versa.I had one bon homme who lived down the road from me and everyday we switched taking each other to work.On our way to work,and during we spoke in broken English/french with each other.He now speaks pretty good English.Myself however find the verb stuff kinda difficult to comprehend.

I was posted to New Brunswick to a troop where every member of my command,from Sgt to SSM is french.I find it difficult from time to time explaining things as their English is somewhat lacking and some don't speak English at all.I recently worked on a course where the course warrant knew no English.We both had french English dictionary's and when we didn't understand what the other was saying we pointed at the words in the book.I have learned a lot since being immersed into it.I now pretty well understand most of conversations and find it easy to now get my point across.One guy who has been helping me said the other day that I actually had no accent when I said a sentence....then corrected a word .

However I have found some Franco's who do speak English will not give a Anglo the opportunity to even try french.I have seen it many times when I attempted."Don't man,speak to me in English".Recently going through Quebec I stopped into a store,asked for a black coffee and a pack of cigarettes.I said "carton" as I thought that was a pack.Well I guess it's 8 packs.When I tried to say I only wanted one he said "you asked for a carton esti,just speak English".

I posted this just to illustrate what I have seen.Personally I couldn't really care which way it goes or if the referendum occurs.For now were all Canadians in the same army.Hopefully they put this referendum crap 6 feet under and carry on,either with seperation or unity.

 

[Genetk44]

My civi-anglo-quebec 2 cents worth. I was born,1955, and grew up in Montreal but from about 1972 until about 1980 I lived in about 6 different countries......when I returned to Quebec in 1980. I moved to a small village(95% franco) north of Montreal. I hadn't used my french for 10 years at least...and I could never get past Bonjour....everybody..shopkeepers,clerks, wait-staff..everybody insisted on talking English to me because they wanted to practise their English...so I'd talk French and they'd talk English and we all got along great...the point being that with goodwill on both sides language doesn't need to be a barrier. As for the seperation issue...personally from what I've sen most people(French and English) in the Montreal area are just fed-up with the subject. I think if most people in Quebec actually looked at it unemotionally they see that the practical reality is that if Quebec seperated then Quebec income taxes would go way up and Quebec government services would go way way down...just look at the state of our roads for starters  :rage:

 

[FredDaHead]

Most separatists are outside of Montreal, though. (A whole bunch of them are at RMC.) I do think that educated people realize that separation is a dumb idea in the current political and economical climate... it's the masses that worry me. There's still a whole bunch of people who were around in 1980, and even more that were around in 1995, and they still think "what a marvelous idea!"

What really scares me is that cokehead (aka PQ leader) saying he'll unilateraly declare independance without even consulting the people. Now, that means one of two things: people will vote the Liberals out (because everyone hates them) and Quebec will separate despite what the people want, or people will vote the Liberals back in because there's no viable alternative in their eyes--the ADQ is evil (way too right wing for Quebec..) and the PQ would cause separation.

 

[orange.paint]

Most separatists are outside of Montreal, though. (A whole bunch of them are at RMC.)

Interesting.What are you doing about it?What is your staff doing about it.

Or is this B/S?

 

[FredDaHead]

Interesting.What are you doing about it?What is your staff doing about it.

Or is this B/S?

What do you suggest I do? Go up to my chain of command with a list of names and say "these are separatists, let's burn them!"?

 

[George Wallace]

(A whole bunch of them are at RMC.)

This only tells me that these guys have NO LOYALTIES?  They, by claiming to be "Separatists", tell me that they have no loyalty to the CF.  Their attending RMC, tells me that they really don't have any strong "Separatist" loyalties, but instead are loyal only to themselves and to their careers.  In both cases, they have proven that they are not the type of person that the CF wants.

 

[observor 69]

Interesting.What are you doing about it?What is your staff doing about it.

Or is this B/S?

I don't want to get too deep into this but I suspect Frederik is right. Youth and a not fully developed reasoning process.
For what it is worth in the 70's in Bagotville, IMHO, there was a separatist sentiment at "all" rank levels on base.
I also agree with Mud recce Man on his observations on Anglos in St.Jean.
I know that a large number of Anglo's have moved from the Montreal area to Ontario, Anglo families of many generations in Quebec who felt it was best for the future of their children.