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Op Laser 2.0

brihard

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FSTO said:
Hmm, sometimes the national interest should over-ride provincial stove-piping. The feds should not run roughshod over provincial sensibilities of course, but when you need focused national action, that should be the priority.

In a constitutional system, there’s only so far you can go with that. Particularly when you’ll need to do most of the heavy lifting through provincial agencies and employees, and when execution will be so dependent on local knowledge.
 

SeaKingTacco

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Brihard said:
In a constitutional system, there’s only so far you can go with that. Particularly when you’ll need to do most of the heavy lifting through provincial agencies and employees, and when execution will be so dependent on local knowledge.

I think there is more than one Provincial Government who would love nothing more than to dump the Health care file federally, so that they can blame somebody else. It doesn’t matter that the health services would not be improved by Ottawa trying to figure out for, say, Red Deer or Deer Lake.

 

brihard

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SeaKingTacco said:
I think there is more than one Provincial Government who would love nothing more than to dump the Health care file federally, so that they can blame somebody else. It doesn’t matter that the health services would not be improved by Ottawa trying to figure out for, say, Red Deer or Deer Lake.

Maybe not the best example; Deer Lake is FN run, under federal regulations. Health for First Nations remains a federal responsibility under INAC.

But yeah- I'm not so sure provinces would want to dump control over COVID response to the feds. As long as provinces get to retain control, they can tailor their responses to their own economic and political goals. Trying to dump the file would be abdicating their responsibility.
 

SeaKingTacco

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Brihard said:
Maybe not the best example; Deer Lake is FN run, under federal regulations. Health for First Nations remains a federal responsibility under INAC.

But yeah- I'm not so sure provinces would want to dump control over COVID response to the feds. As long as provinces get to retain control, they can tailor their responses to their own economic and political goals. Trying to dump the file would be abdicating their responsibility.

I fully agree- I was just trying to make the point that to truly centralize all health care delivery in Canada to Ottawa and away from the provinces would not in any way improve health care delivery in Canada. Exhibit A: health care delivery on every first nation in Canada. Exhibit B: health care delivery to CAF members.  I could go on.

Where I think the Feds can play a useful role in healthcare is to hold National equipment stocks/PPE/medicines for the “rare” pandemics or major national disasters, and then reinforce the Provinces with stock. I am also beginning to wonder if PHAC should take over tracking of vaccinations from the Provinces, so there is a national standard and database, but the provinces would still administer the vaccines.
 

Infanteer

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SeaKingTacco said:
Where I think the Feds can play a useful role in healthcare is to hold National equipment stocks/PPE/medicines for the “rare” pandemics or major national disasters, and then reinforce the Provinces with stock.

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/emergency-preparedness-response/national-emergency-strategic-stockpile.html
 

Blackadder1916

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Brihard said:
Maybe not the best example; Deer Lake is FN run, under federal regulations. Health for First Nations remains a federal responsibility under INAC.

When did Deer Lake become FN?  All one's perspective, I suppose.
 

SeaKingTacco

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Infanteer said:
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/emergency-preparedness-response/national-emergency-strategic-stockpile.html

Yeah, I know, but it looks to me if it wasn’t near good enough for COVID
 

Nfld Sapper

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Blackadder1916 said:
When did Deer Lake become FN?  All one's perspective, I suppose.

Don't confuse Deer Lake First Nation is an Oji-Cree First Nations band government in Northern Ontario, located north of Red Lake, Ontario Canada with Deer Lake is a town in the western part of the island of Newfoundland in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada.

The town derives its name from Deer Lake and is situated at the outlet of the upper Humber River at the northeastern end of the lake.
 

brihard

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I guess given the Mammal/Terrain feature naming convention I ought to have expected there to be more than one Deer Lake.

Incidentally, in my job that same naming convention is called a ‘red flag’.
 

suffolkowner

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SeaKingTacco said:
Yeah, I know, but it looks to me if it wasn’t near good enough for COVID

I think that's because many of the national and provincial stockpiles were thrown out not long before COVID struck. Too expensive to store and expired masks and all that.
 

GAP

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suffolkowner said:
I think that's because many of the national and provincial stockpiles were thrown out not long before COVID struck. Too expensive to store and expired masks and all that.

How on god's green earth does a mask expire?
 

kev994

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GAP said:
How on god's green earth does a mask expire?
Oh man there was a huge ruckus in Winnipeg, a bunch of masks from the SARS stockpile was handed out to schools and daycares, apparently the shelf life is 5 years, these things were ~9. Word was they smell funny. Province said they inspected them and determined they were good but all hell broke loose.
 

suffolkowner

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GAP said:
How on god's green earth does a mask expire?

It's a manufactured safety device so I think they all have to come with an expiry date. The federal government tendered for their removal from at least 2 of the 7 main storage warehouses. Ontario may have done something similar due to the cost of storage of $3M a year(?). There was a case from Ottawa(?) where the hospital/LHIN/health unit CEO or something managed to stop them from throwing out their local supplies. Not information that's being promoted but I hope we get answer at some time in the future
 

Blackadder1916

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NFLD Sapper said:
Don't confuse Deer Lake First Nation is an Oji-Cree First Nations band government in Northern Ontario, located north of Red Lake, Ontario Canada with Deer Lake is a town in the western part of the island of Newfoundland in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada.

The town derives its name from Deer Lake and is situated at the outlet of the upper Humber River at the northeastern end of the lake.

I suppose I should have used the sarcasm emoji.  The last time I was in Deer Lake Nfld (in the 1970s) was when the plane taking us to Halifax to catch the bus to Cornwallis stopped there as it hopped across the island to NS (St. John's, Deer Lake, Sydney, Halifax) - an interesting stop because Chubby Checker got on the flight at Deer Lake.
 

FSTO

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SeaKingTacco said:
I fully agree- I was just trying to make the point that to truly centralize all health care delivery in Canada to Ottawa and away from the provinces would not in any way improve health care delivery in Canada. Exhibit A: health care delivery on every first nation in Canada. Exhibit B: health care delivery to CAF members.  I could go on.

Where I think the Feds can play a useful role in healthcare is to hold National equipment stocks/PPE/medicines for the “rare” pandemics or major national disasters, and then reinforce the Provinces with stock. I am also beginning to wonder if PHAC should take over tracking of vaccinations from the Provinces, so there is a national standard and database, but the provinces would still administer the vaccines.
That would work to me.
 

SeaKingTacco

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GAP said:
How on god's green earth does a mask expire?

My point is that if the Federal National stockpile people were doing their jobs properly, items with expiry dates would (ideally) be sold/given away before they expire and replaced with new stock.

 

GR66

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SeaKingTacco said:
My point is that if the Federal National stockpile people were doing their jobs properly, items with expiry dates would (ideally) be sold/given away before they expire and replaced with new stock.

Bang on....IF they were doing their job properly

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/heath-minister-emergency-stockpile-1.5530081

And both federal parties are to blame.  Ordered under a Conservative government in 2009, expired and apparently not replaced under a conservative government in 2014 and disposed of and apparently not replaced under a Liberal government in 2019.

Like so many "rainy day" things (CF?) it's easy to ignore them in the good times but not having them when times turn bad is a big deal.

 

Remius

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It’s a typical thing in Canada.  We have something we might need, be it a capability or a supply or whatever.  We never use it so we think we might never need it until we do.  So many examples.  And then find ourselves having to start over from scratch.

Isotope production, vaccine production, tanks, mortars, 50 cal, airborne regiment,  etc etc etc. (I’m just listing a salad bowl of examples)

This shouldn’t shock anyone.  We tend to make bad decisions sometimes.  And pay for it later.

I’m curious if this was a departmental decision to find efficiencies (the Cons were big on that direction at that time when they were big on DRAP) or if it was at the specific direction of the sitting gvt.
 

lenaitch

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For regularly consumed items such as PPE, they could set up a system where the government is essentially a central buyer/supplier from which the provinces would order.  That way, the stock get cycled.

Back in 1970, Air Canada Flight 621 augered in north of Toronto in OPP jurisdiction.  Members were pressed into remains recovery, morgue assistants, etc.  One of the problems was proper equipment (most PPE items such as gloves and aprons were rubber back then).  Afterwards, they established two 'emergency kits' aprons, gloves, ball hats, etc.  In the mid-80s, I was transferred to one of the sites and one night I opened up the kit.  Everything that was rubber, fabric, etc. was completely rotten.  Pretty much everything is  prone to deterioration and needs to be managed.
 
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