Ordered to burn accumulated leave.

[Moxo]

      I am a LS and find myself in situation that just doesn't seem right. I am on a course which will break for 2 weeks in February. I have been told that i will have to use my accumulated leave in combination with my remaining annual leave to take that time off. Also that i could not come in to work for those 10 days. Meaning that i cannot just burn my 3 remaining annual and keep my 7 previously accumulated leave. The real kicker is that everyone with no leave will be granted 10 days special leave. My question is can they do this. Is there a reference that clearly states whether or not this is allowed to happen.

    On another note. I went to the pay office today and tried to sell my 7 accumulated days, but was told that that can only be done if the CDS authorizes this via a forces wide order. any clarification / references that could help me would be appreciated.

 

[dangerboy]

Here is the link to the CF Leave Policy Manual, it is the reference for questions regarding leave.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/lea-con/cflpm-mprcfc-eng.asp

Hope this helps

 

[PuckChaser]

Google is your friend:

Dangerboy got the leave manual, you want sections 4.1/4.2.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/doc/chapter-chapitre-016.pdf - QR&O 16.15 Accumulated Leave

Nowhere in either of those documents does it say you can be ordered to spend your accumulated leave. It can remain from year to year without use, and its up to you when you use it. You'll need to read the CBI on Payment in Lieu of Annual Leave.

 

[Moxo]

Thanks for  the references. And i agree that Google is my friend that is how I found this site.

I've read through the refs. It doesn't seem say they can force me to take my accumulated leave. But it also doesn't say they can't. Which is my problem. It has come down from my CO that I will use my accumulated leave. If i don't have something saying that he can't do that then I feel that I'm fighting a losing battle.

As for the CBI, I can't acces that from home but was looking through it at work. the pay clerk showed me the paragraph that says the CDS has to authorize a payout. but the leave manual says

"A member may request at any time a payment in lieu of leave accumulated since 1 April 1996."

which seems to apply to my case.  it goes on to say

"The cashing out of leave accumulated prior to 1 April 1996 (i.e., accrued leave) is not normally authorized outside of national cash out programs, which are centrally funded and approved by the CDS."

so I take that to mean that I should be able to sell my leave since it was accumulated after 1996. I found another thread from 2009 on these forums. It seems the guy made the same argument and eventually got to sell his leave in that case. So how do I make my argument to the pay clerk without pissing him off.

 

[PuckChaser]

You don't argue, write a memo to your CO. State your intent to either bank your leave as per CF Leave Manual and QR&O16.15 or that you request cash payment in lieu of accumulated leave as per CBI xxx.xxx.

If you have a well-written memo, with solid references I bet you'll either keep the leave or be allowed to cash it. My bet is on keeping it, less paperwork. If they make you burn it, you can always redress it and gain compensation back.

 

[Cdnleaf]

      I am a LS and find myself in situation that just doesn't seem right. I am on a course which will break for 2 weeks in February. I have been told that i will have to use my accumulated leave in combination with my remaining annual leave to take that time off. Also that i could not come in to work for those 10 days. Meaning that i cannot just burn my 3 remaining annual and keep my 7 previously accumulated leave. The real kicker is that everyone with no leave will be granted 10 days special leave. My question is can they do this. Is there a reference that clearly states whether or not this is allowed to happen.

    On another note. I went to the pay office today and tried to sell my 7 accumulated days, but was told that that can only be done if the CDS authorizes this via a forces wide order. any clarification / references that could help me would be appreciated.

Thanks for the link on the new manual.

The short answer is yes / they can.  Section 5.5 and 5.6 Special Leave Military Courses and Education.  Sections 5.5.4 and 5.6.4 give the limitations and authorization in your case, to expend all annual/accumulated before granting special.  Anecdotally, you actually belong (meaning posted, att posted or TD; depending on the duration) to the school; so going back 'to work' is not an option.  You can always redress / good luck. 

 

[Occam]

If I'm reading correctly, there are some misconceptions here.

Payment in Lieu of Annual Leave (CBI 205.75) - is used when you can't utilize all of your annual leave prior to the end of the FY, and aren't allowed to accumulate it.

Payment in Lieu of Accumulated Leave (CBI 205.76) - is used to cash out accumulated leave only at the member's request.  It may require CDS approval if the leave was accumulated prior to 1 April 1996 (as it comes out of a different pot of money), but it's still only done at the member's request.

Note para 3.1.05 in the Leave Manual states that members may be ordered on annual leave, but no such provision exists for Accumulated Leave.  However, there are several types of special leave, including Special Leave (Military Courses) and Special Leave (Education). 

Special Leave (Education) requires that all annual and accumulated leave be granted prior to Special Leave (Education) being granted.  However, Special Leave (Education) only applies to "Regular Force members attending an educational institution at public expense, including a Canadian Military College". 

This provision does not apply to Special Leave (Military Courses).  Are you attending a military course, or a civvie university/RMC?

 

[McG]

The short answer is yes / they can.  Section 5.5 and 5.6 Special Leave Military Courses and Education.  Sections 5.5.4 and 5.6.4 give the limitations and authorization in your case, to expend all annual/accumulated before granting special.

You have funny reading skills that let you see things that are not there.  First of all, your reference to Special Leave (Education) is superfluous - the member has indicated he is on course and that is something different than being a student at an academic institution.  Secondly, nowhere in either section does it state a requirement for members to consume all leave of any other sorts prior to being authorized Special Leave (Military Course).  In fact, I know of cases where Special Leave (Military Course) for individuals that still have annual leave remaining and I have never seen the existence of Accumulated or Accrued to be a consideration in granting of Special Leave (Military Course). 

But lets look deeper at what your magic reading skills missed.  Section 4.1.06 tells us:

A member shall not be granted accumulated and/or accrued leave until all current year annual leave has been granted unless the accumulated and/or accrued leave is part of retirement leave.

Precedent is set (in the section on Accumulated Leave no-less) that our policy will explicitly state if a member must consume all of one leave type before being entitled to another leave type.  There is no such statement of requirement for Special Leave (Military Course).

I am curious who is approving the leave.  Army schools are not considered to be a "Canadian Military College" and as such the Commandants cannot approve Special Leave (Military Course) - these approvals must come all the way from Comd LFDTS or the appropriate Area Commander.

 

[Moxo]

I am on a QL5 course 18 months in duration. on a Canadian forces base I don't think that it qualifies as a Canadian Military College. I am not sure who is authorizing the leave I only know what I have already stated. There are a few of us in the same boat. There is a PO2 who is trying to advocate on our behalf but he doesn't have high hopes. I am just looking for any information I can get to help the situation. I appreciate all the comments from everyone here.

 

[McG]

I recomend you consider this:  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/doc/chapter-chapitre-007.pdf

And don't wait for the time limit.  Submit it now so that the chain of command may have the opportunity to reconsider its position prior to you being forced to use leave that you do not need to use.

 

[Cdnleaf]

You have funny reading skills that let you see things that are not there.  First of all, your reference to Special Leave (Education) is superfluous - the member has indicated he is on course and that is something different than being a student at an academic institution.  Secondly, nowhere in either section does it state a requirement for members to consume all leave of any other sorts prior to being authorized Special Leave (Military Course).  In fact, I know of cases where Special Leave (Military Course) for individuals that still have annual leave remaining and I have never seen the existence of Accumulated or Accrued to be a consideration in granting of Special Leave (Military Course). 

But lets look deeper at what your magic reading skills missed.  Section 4.1.06 tells usrecedent is set (in the section on Accumulated Leave no-less) that our policy will explicitly state if a member must consume all of one leave type before being entitled to another leave type.  There is no such statement of requirement for Special Leave (Military Course).

I am curious who is approving the leave.  Army schools are not considered to be a "Canadian Military College" and as such the Commandants cannot approve Special Leave (Military Course) - these approvals must come all the way from Comd LFDTS or the appropriate Area Commander.

Thanks for your observation DS.  I will wager for a beverage of your desire, that for right or wrong their (the school and his Unit COC) response will be similar to my post.  Fear not, there is no magic or error in my reading skills, though looking into my crystal ball I see that he is not the first and predict not the last student to have arrived at the institution and asked the same question.  School Cmdt, having been previously designated can sign off on the special leave.  Regards, Dan.

 

[McG]

... for right or wrong their (the school and his Unit COC) response will be similar to my post. 

The school response may match yours, in which case it would be wrong.  If the school response to a greivance did match your's, then the member would have the option to seek redress from the CDS.  I have seen enough of how that systems works and of the applicable policies to this members circumstances to conclude that his grievance would very likely be supported.

 

[Cdnleaf]

The school response may match yours, in which case it would be wrong.  If the school response to a greivance did match your's, then the member would have the option to seek redress from the CDS.  I have seen enough of how that systems works and of the applicable policies to this members circumstances to conclude that his grievance would very likely be supported.

I agree in principle with your observation, supported yes - changing anything other than perhaps rewording the existing policy - no.

My recommendation to Moxo is to focus on completing his tech course then redress the policy after.  Ask for an AO from his unit to assist with the process.  Equally enjoy the leave and not caught up in this issue, then take it back to the school; who are his chain of command.  All the best, Dan.

 

[REDinstaller]

It's very hard to reinstate accrued/accumulated leave once it's gone. Use the appropriate refs first.

 

[meni0n]

I agree in principle with your observation, supported yes - changing anything other than perhaps rewording the existing policy - no.

My recommendation to Moxo is to focus on completing his tech course then redress the policy after.  Ask for an AO from his unit to assist with the process.  Equally enjoy the leave and not caught up in this issue, then take it back to the school; who are his chain of command.  All the best, Dan.

Not the best advice as his course is 18 months and there is a 6 month time limit to file a grievance.

 

[Occam]

Moxo, if you're in Halifax, the BOR should be able to provide guidance on this, as I'm sure they've come across it before.  If you're in Esquimalt, they should be able to do the same. 

I'll call up a winger of mine tomorrow in Esquimalt to tap his knowledge on the subject.  He's the CPO1 at the BOR.  ;D

In numerous years as both as a student and as staff at a school where semestered courses are taught to CF members, I have never once heard of someone being forced to exhaust accumulated leave in order to be granted special leave for a semester break.  Annual is a whole 'nother ball of wax as it is very clear that it must be exhausted by the end of the annual leave year.

 

[clericalchronicals]

G'Day All,

Just want to throw some light on the policies for you all just so everyone is on the same page.  Special Leave when applied to students tends to get itself mixed up, leading to a whole ton of confusion at the other end.  Being a ULO Administrator, i've had plenty of time to beat my head off my desk for all of these leave types, and here is the "official" description for the different types of leave;

1) Special Leave - Academic Advancement:  This leave applies for serving members who are taking education on their own time, and has professional advancement potential.

2) Special Leave - Military Courses:  This applies to all students currently attending military educational institutions (ie. CFNES, CFNOS, CFSAL).

3) Special Leave - Education: This applies only to those personnel who are enrolled in a Canadian University or College in an approved education program controlled by a Subsidized Education Manager.

In this case, this young chap seems to be under #2.  As such, his Accumulated Leave cannot be ordered used:

Application:  Special Leave (Military Courses) applies to Regular Force or Reserve Force members on Class “B” or "C" reserve service who are in full time attendance on military courses or in full time attendance at educational institutions
including Canadian or international Military Colleges.

Not sure exactly where you are going to school right now, but from the sounds of it, probably the E TECH QL5 or the MAR ENG TECH QL5, regardless, if this applies to you, there should be no redress required, your accumulated leave is not an option for the school.  Period.

Cheers!

 

[OldSolduer]

      I am a LS and find myself in situation that just doesn't seem right. I am on a course which will break for 2 weeks in February. I have been told that i will have to use my accumulated leave in combination with my remaining annual leave to take that time off. Also that i could not come in to work for those 10 days. Meaning that i cannot just burn my 3 remaining annual and keep my 7 previously accumulated leave. The real kicker is that everyone with no leave will be granted 10 days special leave. My question is can they do this. Is there a reference that clearly states whether or not this is allowed to happen.

    On another note. I went to the pay office today and tried to sell my 7 accumulated days, but was told that that can only be done if the CDS authorizes this via a forces wide order. any clarification / references that could help me would be appreciated.

I have a question:

Who can authorize this much special leave...10 Days seems a tad much.

 

[JesseWZ]

The 1.2 candidates at the Infantry School got 10 days Special, but rumor has it it went up to Comd LFDTS for the authorization.

 

[ModlrMike]

I have to think that if your course mates are getting 10 days Special, then so should you. Anything else fails the fairness test. One of the  cornerstones of a redress of grievance is to show how you're being, or have been, treated differently. I would submit that being forced to expend leave when others are getting it gratis should qualify.