Organizations moving away from Military Style Uniforms - Split fm Army Cadet

[kratz]

Not to hijack the thread, but I wanted to add to the other posts re: distancing from the military uniform mentality out there. For the past few years, St John Ambulance volunteers are asking for more everyday friendly uniforms vice the black and white style they currently use. Despite more than 125 years of service to the community and a close association with the military, people are wanting to distance themselves from the military these days.

I do not agree with SJA or the cadet movements gradually wearing away their links and history from their origins. Sadly, this is what is happening in an attempt to appease and appeal to those who object.

 

[George Wallace]

I would say that this is a successfull hijack of the "Army Cadet Dress Regs updated 46-01" Thread.

It would seem that it is a contradiction of terms to say that an organization wants to get away from "Military Style" uniforms, when basically that is where the term and all "uniforms" originated. 

I wonder if any of these people have travelled and looked at similar organizations around the world.  The German Red Cross uniforms are almost identical to WW II Wehrmacht uniforms.  The Germans, as a whole, are facinated with uniforms.  Every organization in Germany seems to have a uniform.

It is not just the Germans.  Look at the British.  They have 'uniforms' for the different professions.  The suit, bowler cap, and umbrella is in a way a uniform.

Since the begining time, uniforms have been largely military in nature, used to identify members of different units, Trades, professions, etc.

 

[Neill McKay]

Not to hijack the thread, but I wanted to add to the other posts re: distancing from the military uniform mentality out there. For the past few years, St John Ambulance volunteers are asking for more everyday friendly uniforms vice the black and white style they currently use. Despite more than 125 years of service to the community and a close association with the military, people are wanting to distance themselves from the military these days.

I do not agree with SJA or the cadet movements gradually wearing away their links and history from their origins. Sadly, this is what is happening in an attempt to appease and appeal to those who object.

As another example, the Canadian Power and Sail Squadrons have gone away from their system of uniforms, ranks, and distinguishing flags for higher-ranking officers specifically to avoid a military appearance which the senior leadership thought might discourage new members from joining.

Regarding the cadet programme, I could think of a few factors that are tending to water down the military connection, but I can say that there is a sizeable part of the leadership that seeks to strengthen it.  How any individual unit goes will depend largely on which camp the CO is in.

 

[armyvern]

... How any individual unit goes will depend largely on which camp the CO is in.

Which, in itself, is quite the ironic statement nowadays don't you think?? Given that the CO now actually is a "Commissioned" Officer of the CF?

Hmmmmm.

 

[George Wallace]

This may be a Canadian phenomenon only, perhaps in line with the increasingly "anti-military" culture that is growing.  I don't think that it is a wide spread attitude around the globe.  Many cultures are very fascinated by 'uniforms'.

The fact that they are getting away from 'military style' uniforms, may just be a false starter.  They are just getting away from 'current' military style uniforms, and perhaps going with something that they think is less military, but still is.  Perhaps they think Star Trek style uniforms are not military? 

It really doesn't matter if they think the uniform is military based or not; as long as there is a ranking structure indicated on the uniform, it is a "structured" uniform and still basically 'military' in origins.

 

[kratz]

...
It really doesn't matter if they think the uniform is military based or not; as long as there is a ranking structure indicated on the uniform, it is a "structured" uniform and still basically 'military' in origins.

I agree. Most people do not object to groups such as Scout/Girl Guide uniforms, yet they had a historical roots with the military as well.  As for the movement away from military based uniforms, in my first post, I should have stressed that SJA's 125 years in Canada and the feelings are from a Canadian perspective.

 

[gwp]

I agree. Most people do not object to groups such as Scout/Girl Guide uniforms, yet they had a historical roots with the military as well.  As for the movement away from military based uniforms, in my first post, I should have stressed that SJ-A's 125 years in Canada and the feelings are from a Canadian perspective.

It must be a very small group within St. John Ambulance. There is certainly no volume to any movement away from the uniforms. The uniform is a requirement to be identified when providing community service.  It is important to that other professional first responders know where to look for the St. John volunteers.

The standard working uniform for St. John is black cargo pants, white shirt, (black sweater) beret, or officer cap and appropriate bright yellow coloured outerwear depending upon the service with St. John First Aid.  Accoutrements include rank epaulets.The uniform is similar for adults, cadets, and crusaders. 

The dress uniform for St. John officers remains the same.  Single breasted black tunic with silver buttons and accoutrements.  The attached news letter even has a photo of the Ceremonial Cape, St. John mess dress and standard black uniform. 

http://www.sja.ca/BCYukon/PDF%20Documents/CP-R-0512-Life_Lines-E-BC.pdf

I speak as a past vice president of the the Branch Executive Council and Chair of the 125th anniversary committee.  There is no such serious discussion in the St. John organization.  I even checked today with a large group of volunteers at a major event. 

Certainly, there are occasional individuals who do not understand the requirement for a uniform and question the rank system.  Those same individuals do not understand that in an organization that requires leaders, who must react and act and direct actions that will reduce suffering and in the extreme save lives (no matter how collegial) there must be an obvious "chain of command" with indications of obvious expectations of the level of authority and experience.  In addition to First Aid Courses, the St. John Organizations runs "NCO" Courses for its cadet and adult brigade members.  There are officer qualification courses as well.  St. John Cadet/Crusader Brigade First Aid Competitions usually involve a "drill competition"  -- albeit the standard is not often "military" ... but it does what drill is supposed to do. 

 

[catalyst]

I agree. Most people do not object to groups such as Scout/Girl Guide uniforms, yet they had a historical roots with the military as well.  As for the movement away from military based uniforms, in my first post, I should have stressed that SJA's 125 years in Canada and the feelings are from a Canadian perspective.

Girl guides barely has a uniform anymore - moved away from the 'standard' old stuff (whcih was needed) to a new more casual uniform.........then moved away again. I'd be hard pressed to tell a group of girl guides from a bunch of kids on the street anymore.

 

[rwgill]

Mich, I suspect that the cost of the uniform may be a factor as well.  A simple Sparks uniform will cost parents $55 plus tax, to be worn 1-2 years.  Then add a Brownie uniform $79 plus tax, Guide uniform $60, another $60 for Pathfinders...........well the bill runs up.  Add on that nightly/monthly/yearly dues and you have a hefty price.  The current uniform (prices above) are simple t-shirts, pants and such.  Nothing like it used top be.

 

[gwp]

Given that the CO now actually is a "Commissioned" Officer of the CF?

Now?   Cadet Instructors have been commissioned officers since as early as 1898 while school teachers were appointed and subsequenlty since 1909 when the Cadet Services of Canada was established almost a century ago. 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/78268/post-735828.html#new

 

[catalyst]

Mich, I suspect that the cost of the uniform may be a factor as well.  A simple Sparks uniform will cost parents $55 plus tax, to be worn 1-2 years.  Then add a Brownie uniform $79 plus tax, Guide uniform $60, another $60 for Pathfinders...........well the bill runs up.  Add on that nightly/monthly/yearly dues and you have a hefty price.  The current uniform (prices above) are simple t-shirts, pants and such.  Nothing like it used top be.

That was one factor (but regardless - the uniform prices were about the same - the t-shirts are expensive...but not that expensive..however anything with the GGOC logo is expensive, yikes).  Girls have lost the whole thing of 'uniform' and the whole concept which was one important part of past 'gg' programs - at one time it mirrored the cadets' importance WRT wearing a uniform.

Anways.....back to the thread.

 

[The_Falcon]

It must be a very small group within St. John Ambulance. There is certainly no volume to any movement away from the uniforms. The uniform is a requirement to be identified when providing community service.  It is important to that other professional first responders know where to look for the St. John volunteers.

The standard working uniform for St. John is black cargo pants, white shirt, (black sweater) beret, or officer cap and appropriate bright yellow coloured outerwear depending upon the service with St. John First Aid.  Accoutrements include rank epaulets.The uniform is similar for adults, cadets, and crusaders. 

The dress uniform for St. John officers remains the same.  Single breasted black tunic with silver buttons and accoutrements.  The attached news letter even has a photo of the Ceremonial Cape, St. John mess dress and standard black uniform. 

http://www.sja.ca/BCYukon/PDF%20Documents/CP-R-0512-Life_Lines-E-BC.pdf

I speak as a past vice president of the the Branch Executive Council and Chair of the 125th anniversary committee.  There is no such serious discussion in the St. John organization.  I even checked today with a large group of volunteers at a major event. 

Certainly, there are occasional individuals who do not understand the requirement for a uniform and question the rank system.  Those same individuals do not understand that in an organization that requires leaders, who must react and act and direct actions that will reduce suffering and in the extreme save lives (no matter how collegial) there must be an obvious "chain of command" with indications of obvious expectations of the level of authority and experience.  In addition to First Aid Courses, the St. John Organizations runs "NCO" Courses for its cadet and adult brigade members.  There are officer qualification courses as well.  St. John Cadet/Crusader Brigade First Aid Competitions usually involve a "drill competition"  -- albeit the standard is not often "military" ... but it does what drill is supposed to do. 

I know before I left St. John a few years, here in Ontario the Brigade (now Called community services), was looking to have a more EMS style uniform, vice the Para-Military Style.  But it had little to with any anti-military sentiment, and more of a practical one.  IE making sure the public could identify us as first-aid providers vice security guards (which is what people typically thought we were).  Same thing in scouting before I left, the move away from the traditional uniform, had more to do with cost for the members and practicallity of use.

 

[George Wallace]

I know before I left St. John a few years, here in Ontario the Brigade (now Called community services), was looking to have a more EMS style uniform, vice the Para-Military Style.  But it had little to with any anti-military sentiment, and more of a practical one.  IE making sure the public could identify us as first-aid providers vice security guards (which is what people typically thought we were).  Same thing in scouting before I left, the move away from the traditional uniform, had more to do with cost for the members and practicallity of use.

I don't know.  When I was in Scouts, the only uniform articles we had were the Shirt and the hat; first the stetson, then the beret.  Pants, boots, gloves, parkas, whatever, were all personal articles of clothing suitable for whatever occasion you were partaking in.  Not much expense there.

 

[NL_engineer]

I don't know.  When I was in Scouts, the only uniform articles we had were the Shirt and the hat; first the stetson, then the beret.  Pants, boots, gloves, parkas, whatever, were all personal articles of clothing suitable for whatever occasion you were partaking in.  Not much expense there.

Recently Scouts Canada went to a T-shirt, from the tan shirt; Basically because they let the kids decide what they wanted.  Now they are moving back to the tan shirt.



On another note they got rid of the beret, as it looked to military, and at the time Scouts Canada was positioning its self far away from the the military.

 

[George Wallace]

On another note they got rid of the beret, as it looked to military, and at the time Scouts Canada was positioning its self far away from the the military.

Should we chip in and send them a few thousand Army.ca ballcaps?     >

Mike may be able to get a Tax credit as an Advertising Writeoff.

 

[armyvern]

Recently Scouts Canada went to a T-shirt, from the tan shirt; Basically because they let the kids decide what they wanted.  Now they are moving back to the tan shirt.

On another note they got rid of the beret, as it looked to military, and at the time Scouts Canada was positioning its self far away from the the military.

Actually, they never got rid of the tan shirt. Most troops just went to wearing them for "ceremonial" occasions such as Chief Scout presentations, awards, badge nights etc.

The "SC" logo t-shirt is the norm around here for regular meetings.

 

[NL_engineer]

Actually, they never got rid of the tan shirt. Most troops just went to wearing them for "ceremonial" occasions such as Chief Scout presentations, awards, badge nights etc.

The "SC" logo t-shirt is the norm around here for regular meetings.

O I know  >

The troop I am a leader for moved back to the tan for regular meetings/formal stuff.  For a wile it was off the books and replaced with white dress shirt, blue dress pants, and a blue tie; worn with polished black dress shoes (tell me what kid wants to wear that).

 

[armyvern]

O I know  >

The troop I am a leader for moved back to the tan for regular meetings/formal stuff.  For a wile it was off the books and replaced with white dress shirt, blue dress pants, and a blue tie; worn with polished black dress shoes (tell me what kid wants to wear that).

I don't know. I've never seen it in my 17+ years as a leader. Then again, I'm a girl - my fashion sense is just ... well ... better than that!  >

 

[rwgill]

That was one factor (but regardless - the uniform prices were about the same - the t-shirts are expensive...but not that expensive..however anything with the GGOC logo is expensive, yikes).  Girls have lost the whole thing of 'uniform' and the whole concept which was one important part of past 'gg' programs - at one time it mirrored the cadets' importance WRT wearing a uniform.

Anways.....back to the thread.

Actually Mich.............it seems to be on topic now

I was a Scout once and wore a beret, dark green shirt, red sash.  Thanks to my parents, who were Scout leaders, I also had the funky shorts and knee-high socks with garters.  I guess that I was a bit of a scout geek.  I remember playing sports, games and other physical activities and a dress shirt was not exactly practical.........nor were the knee high socks.  

 

[gwp]

This discussion is happening in somewhat of a vacuum. These websites are useful.
St.John Ambulance
http://www.sja.ca/Canada/Pages/default.aspx
Takes a little to navigate - you can move from region to region with the drop down menu top right.

Scouts Canada
http://www.scouts.ca/dnn/AboutUs/Youthprograms/tabid/61/Default.aspx
example page Scout uniform
http://www.scouts.ca/media/documents/scoutuniformS04.pdf

Girl Guides Canada
http://www.girlguides.ca/index_eng.html

Guides uniform catalogue
http://www.girlguides.ca/default1.asp?ID=1200
http://www.girlguides.ca/media/new_site/docs/catalogue0809/Catalogue0809-guides.pdf