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Organizations moving away from Military Style Uniforms - Split fm Army Cadet

ArmyVern said:
Which, in itself, is quite the ironic statement nowadays don't you think?? Given that the CO now actually is a "Commissioned" Officer of the CF?

Like every other branch in the CF, we have our switched-on members, average members, and members who the rest of us would rather not wear the same uniform as.  In small units where the number of candidates for appointment as CO is limited, sometimes members of the last group wind up sitting in the big chair.  Pity, but the alternative can be closure of the unit.
 
Some random observations:

The suit and tie that most men wear as business apparel is directly descended from military uniforms of the early modern period (@ 16-1700). The buttons on the sleeve of a man's suit jacket were introduced by the Prussian Army (forgot which King) to discourage recruits from wiping their noses on the sleeve.

The Scouts were founded by Baden-Powell as a paramilitary force and were actually expected to be used as scouts, messengers etc. at one time.

The St. John's Ambulance is also directly descended from a military organization: the Knights Hospitaller (also known as the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta, Order of St. John, Knights of Malta, and Chevaliers of Malta), and having been founded in 1080, are by far the oldest uniformed force in this particular thread.
 
N. McKay said:
Like every other branch in the CF, we have our switched-on members, average members, and members who the rest of us would rather not wear the same uniform as.  In small units where the number of candidates for appointment as CO is limited, sometimes members of the last group wind up sitting in the big chair.  Pity, but the alternative can be closure of the unit.

Absolutely agreed. My corps CO back in the day also happened to be my principle in Junior High School circa 1982/3. He did recommend me as the Top Army Cadet, which I 'won" (??) & as such, I dined with Prince Andrew (who went on to marry a red-head I'll point out. ;)) in Sussex, NB during his Royal Visit. That was as a Cadet though. Then there was the school side of 'me'. I got posted to Gagetown upon my return from Op Apollo in Oct 2003 to stand up MASOP at this location. In 2004, when we launched Haiti, I got double hatted as the IC Clothing because their Sgt & MCpl both launched with 2RCR. While giving my very first O Group to those Clothing Stores personnel, in walked the Det Comd of the RCSU(A) Det Gagetown ... Capt P. D. ... I recognized him immediately as the CO of 2647 from 21 years before.

He recognized me too obviously - as after I advised him he'd have to wait for us to finish up the O Gp, he stated "Hey, I know you --- I gave you the strap a couple of times in Waasis Road Junior High didn't I?" "Uh, yep says I." He gets a big grin over his face and the troops start giggling. I'm trying to think of what to say back as he walks towards my office and it hits me: "Don't worry Sir, I forgive you -- I've learned to like it since then!"

Needless, we all cracked up ... and the O Group waited. True story. Note that he picked the strap story to bring up in front of everyone over the "you got to dine with Prince Andrew" story. I have many stories. I should, one day, write a book about all my shenanigans.

He's gone on to much bigger and better things around here these days. Anyone who knows of whom I speak --- will know what he's up to. He's a great guy.
 
kratz said:
Not to hijack the thread, but I wanted to add to the other posts re: distancing from the military uniform mentality out there. For the past few years, St John Ambulance volunteers are asking for more everyday friendly uniforms vice the black and white style they currently use. Despite more than 125 years of service to the community and a close association with the military, people are wanting to distance themselves from the military these days.

I do not agree with SJA or the cadet movements gradually wearing away their links and history from their origins. Sadly, this is what is happening in an attempt to appease and appeal to those who object.

There is a some confusion in this thread about "military uniforms" and what a uniform is. I think you have to go back to the very beginning to get a very basic understanding of how the whole thing has evolved in our country, and by that, I really mean in the British system from where Canada has evolved.

The British Army's uniform was really just an evolution of civilian clothing. The famous 'redcoat' was nothing more than that - a red coat adopted for field wear by His Majesty's troops in the field. Along the way, certain distinctions were adopted in order to better identify certain status - knots on the shoulder were worn by corporals, officers wore a metal gorget at the throat, and the lining of the coat was sewn in specific colours to identify the wearer as belonging to a certain regiment - which in the 1600 and 1700s was usually identified by the name of the colonel - Blakeney's Regiment or Pulham's Regiment or the like - The Green Howards and The Buffs came from the fact there were two Colonel Howards, one who had green linings sewn to the inside of their men's redcoats, and the other with buff linings.

At the very root of things, then, from the beginning, uniforms were just clothes. Civilian and military fashion has always gone hand in hand (by the way, Maclean's Magazine has an article this month announcing the new U.S. Army line of clothing at Sears - I'm not making it up - the RCMP had done something similar, apparently).

If you look at British officer's uniforms of World War I, they are very similar to civilian lounge suits of that period, with the exception of being in Khaki. For military campaigning, of course, they added the Sam Browne belt and various equipment, and later the shrapnel helmet, respirator, revolver, etc. But away from the front, with the breeches and puttees and riding boots removed, the officer might reasonably pass for a businessman, with necktie and collarpin in place. Certainly shirts continued to be made by first line firms on Saville Row for officers.

Things changed in World War II as military dress became utilitarian - but then, civilian fashion did also. Jean jackets were inspired by the battle jackets of World War II, and the US Army inspired the world's militaries with a range of comfortable combat clothing in cotton duck. The Italians were the first to make heavy use of camouflage printed material; the Germans later became famous for it. Today the fad continues and everyone uses camouflage material - you can't walk through a shopping mall without seeing it in the trendiest clothing stores. Again - civilian fashion and military styles go hand in hand. Uniforms are really just clothes.

The "demilitarization" of uniforms has been observed in every organization in Canada - most notably the prison service, but also Canada Post, local police services, etc. Sometimes the move has been for practical reasons - rubber soled running shoes replace stiff leather boots which are better for delivering mail or chasing "perps" in. Hats have been disappearing from men's civilian fashions since at least the 1970s. Perhaps Christopher Pike is to blame; his hat is clearly visible on his television set in his quarters - but he's never seen wearing it. I doubt the answer really lies there though.

There should be no alarm when military uniform changes to match the changing norms of civilian fashion; the two have always been closely linked, one inspiring the other. Clothes may not make the man, but the uniform does act as a recruiting tool. I can understand the argument that a 'less aggressive' uniform is a 'less attractive' uniform, but there is also the danger of appearing outdated - cadet corps still wearing woolen battle jackets may appeal to some as a paean to tradition, but to most it would come off as either a fashion disaster or worse, child abuse. If the issue gas spectacles are referred to as birth control devices, there reaches a point also at which point outdated uniforms become a deterrent to recruiting also. In the natural order of things, uniforms evolve, in the civilian world as in the military world, and the two usually go hand in hand.



 
Sito Origami said:
At the very root of things, then, from the beginning, uniforms were just clothes. Civilian and military fashion has always gone hand in hand (by the way, Maclean's Magazine has an article this month announcing the new U.S. Army line of clothing at Sears - I'm not making it up - the RCMP had done something similar, apparently).

When I was on leave and flying from place to place a few months ago, I noticed that there were t-shirts, bags, etc. with the RCAF roundel and logo being sold at the airports, next to the RCMP line of clothing. 
 
Sito Origami said:
Hats have been disappearing from men's civilian fashions since at least the 1970s. Perhaps Christopher Pike is to blame; his hat is clearly visible on his television set in his quarters - but he's never seen wearing it. I doubt the answer really lies there though.

Actually, it was President Kennedy that started the trend of men going hatless.  I think.
 
DONT_PANIC said:
Actually, it was President Kennedy that started the trend of men going hatless.  I think.

How dare you suggest that the greatest President since Abraham Lincoln was a Star Trek fan. I think.
 
Sito Origami said:
How dare you suggest that the greatest President since Abraham Lincoln was a Star Trek fan. I think.

That doesn't mean that we can't dress real neat, from our hats to our feet, and surprise 'em with a victory cry.
 
Sito Origami said:
Things changed in World War II as military dress became utilitarian - but then, civilian fashion did also. Jean jackets were inspired by the battle jackets of World War II,


Levi & Strauss Co. began selling their jean jackets in 1905, and the jackets went overseas during WW2.
The design remained the same until 1960.
They were not inspired by battle jackets.

Sources:
http://www.cottoninc.com/pressreleases/?articleID=119
http://www.levistrauss.com/Downloads/levis_timeline.pdf


 
Even now, more than 40 years after battledress was created, its ghost lives on in our midst in the denim jackets of the fashionable young, many of whom must be unaware of the nature of the beast they have inherited.

Source: "British Battledress 1937-1961" by Brian Jewell and Mike Chappell.

I don't doubt that cowboys wore denim jackets of some sort before 1940, but if you want to claim that short-waisted garments nearly identical to the Second World War battle jackets were widely popular before that, you'd need to provide a source with an illustration or two before I was even half-way convinced.
 
gwp said:
It must be a very small group within St. John Ambulance. There is certainly no volume to any movement away from the uniforms. The uniform is a requirement to be identified when providing community service.  It is important to that other professional first responders know where to look for the St. John volunteers. 

I would agree with that - if anything, civilian organizations appear to be just as 'militant' as they have always been, with police forces emulating the military more and more often across the country...
 
Greymatters said:
I would agree with that - if anything, civilian organizations appear to be just as 'militant' as they have always been, with police forces emulating the military more and more often across the country...

And yet the Military Police have recently adopted a black uniform that looks distinctly more like a civilian police uniform than a military one.  I'm not arguing with you, Greymatters, I was just noting the irony of that particular move.

And FWIW, I know firsthand that the Commissionaires (at least in BC) are currently trying to move away from "military" style uniforms.  Mind you, I think some of the critics are wing-nuts that feel that ANY uniform is militaristic.  They're trying to do away with the ranks of Corporal and Warrant Officer in the BC Corps because they imagine that the average person hears more about Sergeants on TV, so that's all they understand.  Sad really.  Especially when you consider how many Commissionaires now have no military or police experience nowadays...  the organization is a shadow of it's former self.
 
George Wallace said:
This may be a Canadian phenomenon only, perhaps in line with the increasingly "anti-military" culture that is growing. 

Here in Australia the traditional Boy Scout and Cub Scout uniforms have been abandoned for blue t-shirts, as not to traumatise any new Australians in looking paramilitary.

At times like these, its us who are our own worst enemy. You know, the fear to offend others, when in fact they might not be offended at all.


OWDU

Edited for spelling
 
Short waist jean jackets were used by the confederate army 1863-64.  There are examples
at the Smithsonian Institute, but with only a single left pocket.

The US Navy began using denim work shirts with the pockets and jeans in 1901.

Below is a 1917 USN photo, you can see the lower jacket pockets clearly on the two men nearest the
left.

The US Army began using denim work dress in 1919, however the jacket was longer than the navy one.
Other prewar and WW2 US army denim photos:
http://supertalk.superfuture.com/showthread.php?t=51912



 
Sito Origami said:
Source: "British Battledress 1937-1961" by Brian Jewell and Mike Chappell.

I don't doubt that cowboys wore denim jackets of some sort before 1940, but if you want to claim that short-waisted garments nearly identical to the Second World War battle jackets were widely popular before that, you'd need to provide a source with an illustration or two before I was even half-way convinced.

The basic design of the "jean jacket" was probably established in the early 1900s when the Levi's 506xx type-1 went into production (see pic below for example of this model jacket).  Short waisted jackets were probably common as work garments for more than just cowboys, simply because they were ultilitarian (and cheap).  The adoption by the British military of battledress was itself an adaptation of ski outfits and working men's clothing.  The rising popularity (in the USA) of "jean jackets" after WW2 probably has as much to do with it being a cheap, casual jacket that many ex-soldiers took to wearing, not because they fondly remembered their uniforms but because it was cheap, hard-wearing and (into the fifties) became one of the symbols of rebellious youth as protrayed on the screen by Brando, Dean et al.

 
xena said:
And yet the Military Police have recently adopted a black uniform that looks distinctly more like a civilian police uniform than a military one.  I'm not arguing with you, Greymatters, I was just noting the irony of that particular move.

Well, not to argue, but the black 'civilian' police uniform is, in my eyes, merely a copy of black uniforms formerly used by some military forces (if not in Canada then elsewhere in the world).  Any standardized 'uniform' has roots and/or similarities that can be traced back to the military...
 
A SHORT HISTORY OF DENIM
     (c) 2007 Lynn Downey
  Levi Strauss & Co. Historian

http://www.levistrauss.com/Downloads/History-Denim.pdf

And, from the company timeline:

http://www.levistrauss.com/Downloads/levis_timeline.pdf

1940s – During World War II, the design of waist overalls is changed due to government
mandates regarding the conservation of raw materials. U.S. soldiers wear their Levi's® jeans and
jackets overseas, giving the products their first international exposure.

So it appears the denim jacket may predate battle dress jackets.

 
Sito Origami said:
The "demilitarization" of uniforms has been observed in every organization in Canada - most notably the prison service, but also Canada Post, local police services, etc.






1st of all it's a Correctional Service,and have another look at the Correctional Service of Canada  uniforms,both working and Dress. We have returned to a military style!!
 
Blackadder1916 said:
... became one of the symbols of rebellious youth as protrayed on the screen by Brando, Dean et al.

Definately a big selling point...
 
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