Our Great GG.

[Michael Dorosh]

As for the statement that in most successful democracies the HOG and HOS are separate-where does that leave the US?

Cheers.
Cheers.

Or Germany in 1933.....

 

[pbi]

Michael I think I know what you're driving at but Germany in 1933 wasn't, IMHO, an example of a successful democracy, although the President(HOS) and the Chancellor(HOG) were separate offices prior to Hitlers accession. IMHO Hitler got to power because he was able to exploit some of the failures of the Weimar Govt and some of the systemic weaknesses of the Weimar Constitution that allowed for very abitrary powers to be used. One might argue that if Germany had been a truly "successful democracy", Herr H might have died a poor artist in Austria. Cheers.

 

[RCA]

Head of Government (Legislative branch) in the US is The Speaker of the House and the Head of State is The President - separation of powers. If I remember correctly the Speaker is next in line after the Vice.

As for caviar tastes, this maybe true, maybe not, but as I said above, you hears something often enough it tends to become fact for those you don't care to look any further then a sound bite (and PBI I do not include with that bunch and no slight intended.)

What are caviar tastes. I've been around long enough to know, the higher you get, the better perks there are. (ie Fort Garry over 17 Wing)

 

[Mortar guy]

I am not here to debate the need for the office of the GG or even the need for the seperation of powers between the HOS and HOG. I don't give a rats about that debate and I don't think its relevant to the discussion. All I am saying is that in my opinion (and personal experience) the current GG is doing an outstanding job and we get far more out of her than we pay into the office. I would just like to clear up a few points:

1) The artist who used blood as a medium was not chosen by the GG, he was selected by the Canada Council for the Arts. So, if you have a problem with him receiving the Visual Arts award, I suggest you bitch to them. Did you think the GG sat in her office and reviewed the works of every artist in Canada and then selected her favourite?

2)

The position holds no real power.  The GG is just a figurehead, the REAL head of state is the PM.

Actually, the REAL head of state is the GG. I don't mean to embarass you but I think it is shameful how little most Canadians know about their system of government. The position holds considerable power - she signs all bills into law, she appoints the PM (very important in a minority government), she dissolves parliament, she signs commissioning scrolls, she is the CinC of the Armed Forces. All of these things mean power and influence (not as much as the PM or the US President but pretty decent by international standards - as far as HOSs go). Just because it is rarely used does not mean it does not exist.

3

If you look deep enough, you will probably find that the GG had clearances from External Affairs and the PMO to go to Russia. They could have vetoed. So the presumption that the GG gather all the artists together and jump on a plane to Russia and merrily burned taxpayers dollars is naive to say the least and unfair at best..

You are absolutely correct RCA. Of course the GG doesn't just go wherever she likes, whenever she likes. The planning for the trip was done mostly by DFAIT with input from PMO, Rideau Hall, RCMP, DND etc. I was the ADC responsible for planning the Finland and Iceland portion of the last state visit and I can tell you it was no junket. 16 hour days were the norm and many of the delegation found it difficult to keep up with the pace the GG sets. I don't know about you but I am not fond of 16 hours of back to back meetings, speeches, roundtable discussions, and cultural events! Hardly a vacation! It is true that there was a very short period of down time in Finland at the halfway point but, the GG chose to forgo the break and fly to Germany to meet the bodies of Cpl Beerenfenger and Sgt Short and the injured soldiers on their way back to Canada.

Before anyone gets worried, I am not divulging any Rideau Hall secrets. All of this information is (or was) available on the Rideau Hall website or in various newspaper articles of the time.

Finally, I want to clarify my previous point about reverting to colony status. All I am saying is that if we see no need to strengthen and promote canadian institutions and culture, why bother remaining a country? If we can't be bothered to spend a measly $19 million to preserve our form of government and to showcase all the best things about Canada, then we do not deserve to be a sovereign country. Why continue to be Canada when we show no pride in things Canadian (sorry, hockey and healthcare do not a country make)? If people feel that money is more important than history, tradition or culture then we are a sorry excuse for a country. Of course, this is not how most Canadians feel. Despite what a few blowhard columnists write, most Canadians recognize that this kind of thing is necessary and important. Most people who can think for themselves (and that's most people) realize it is good to have something to be proud of and are incredibly patriotic people. We are not a sorry excuse for a country but, in my opinion, the best place in the world to live. All the GG is trying to do is make it a little better and show us off to the world.

MG

 

[bubba]

heyyy nobody anwsered my ques on how to get the job.come on troops take the  knot out of your knickers, that incident in VAN was a pretty  stupid thing to do weither her reps had something to do with it or not.made her look like she was above the comman people.throw in the fact of the govt dissen the vets on dday by not sendin them over for the reunion because the govt is cheap.alot of people down here got pissed off over that,then ya here of her stylin and profilin with enterage. c'mon ya think were gona be good little sheep an say notin.pbi i wasn't tryin to slander her just addin a little sarcasm to there itinery ;D    hey rca, how ya know the perks get better the higher ya go,?????answer/pigs at the trough are fatter.just another sound bight for my collection :-* :-*  i know she is alot better than some of the cardboard gg we had,but with the gov wastin so much of our money with no regard for regular citizens and what we want peaple are gonna vent.i think it's time canada gets it self in order and looks after it.s own first.....

 

[Acorn]

Do you speak any known language bubba?

Acorn

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

I personally don't mind her budget, but I did mind the Scandanavian junkit.

In essence the government paid the ticket for a bunch of artist snobs (and even more of her staff if I remember correctly) to take a 5-star trip that most people cannot even fathom.

How specifically did that help average Canadians?

Bottom Line:  I'd like to see her more focused and even a dedicated public advocate of the armed forces and its history as it concerns the security of the state, and less focused on the foo-foo shi-shi world tours promoting Canadian Art to other members of the world community.  If the GG stuck to that and tied it into creating supporting materials for the education system, I'd propose increasing her budget....



Matthew.  

 

[Michael Dorosh]

heyyy nobody anwsered my ques on how to get the job.come on troops take the  knot out of your knickers, that incident in VAN was a pretty  stupid thing to do weither her reps had something to do with it or not.made her look like she was above the comman people.throw in the fact of the govt dissen the vets on dday by not sendin them over for the reunion because the govt is cheap.alot of people down here got pissed off over that,then ya here of her stylin and profilin with enterage. c'mon ya think were gona be good little sheep an say notin.pbi i wasn't tryin to slander her just addin a little sarcasm to there itinery ;D    hey rca, how ya know the perks get better the higher ya go,?????answer/pigs at the trough are fatter.just another sound bight for my collection :-* :-*  i know she is alot better than some of the cardboard gg we had,but with the gov wastin so much of our money with no regard for regular citizens and what we want peaple are gonna vent.i think it's time canada gets it self in order and looks after it.s own first.....

You know, the moderator of the Army Cadet forum is insisting that posters do a spell check and use some actual punctuation.  Maybe the grown ups should try doing the same.  :

As for D-Day, that was discussed in-depth here, the government was not "cheap", and in the end, if I recall correctly, promised some money to every vet that wanted to go (though admittedly a bit late in the game).

As for perks getting better the higher you go - it is true, the corollary to that is that they are also often well deserved.  If you work anything like you write, I doubt you will ever know.  Like they say, walk a mile in someone's shoes...I've been in management myself on civvie side, work very closely with civvie management now and also with officers in my Regiment - I think a lot of perks are indeed well deserved, they go hand in hand with great responsibility.  Believe it or not, that is exactly what the GG has - responsibility - and the remarks of some profoundly jealous, ignorant, and uninformed people will do little to change that.

You're an excellent argument for a return to the class system.  Your argument against the Governor General simply smacks of "I'm too stupid to achieve anything on my own, or understand what others better than me strive to achieve so we must level the playing field by given nothing to everyone."  Sounds like Communism to me.  We can see how well that worked out.

 

[Cloud Cover]

You're an excellent argument for a return to the class system.  

Didn't realize we put it behind us. After all, the GG represents royalty.

 

[Big Foot]

The GG is also a part of our heritage. You look back to the early days of British North America and there has always been a governor appointed by the Regal as the head of state. I for one think that we should be proud of our history and continue to preserve it in any way we can. Adrienne Clarkson, regardless of whether she gives awards to guys for taking pictures of themselves with blood coming out of their asses, is a fine representitive of Canada and therefore should be accorded respect as such. To suggest ditching the position all together would be to ignore where we've come from. Besides, indirectly we do vote for the GG as the government selects an individual, based on their own personal merits, to represent Canada in this capacity. The GG is a part of our identity as Canadians and to abandon it would be to abandon a part of ourselves.

 

[Torlyn]

Right...  ANYWAY, to get back on topic...

Is 19 million too much for the GG?  My personal feelings towards this particular GG, (expressed in other posts) I don't think that 19 or 34 mil for an entire country to spend on our head of state is too much.  Given that her spending is under a microscope, I can be satisfied provided there are no frivolous expenditures.  I have issues with Clarkson as GG, but not the office of the GG itself.  (I don't like Paul Martin either, but I don't want the position of Prime Minister removed)

Back to the original thread...  I don't see how they can call it "slashing" the budget when they remove 417k out of 19.1mil.  Not much of a slash, IMO.

And we DO need to have some sort of business reputation overseas, and if the office of the GG does that, great.  I know in Alberta we've sent delegations to various countries to increase trade, and by and large, they've worked, and they don't come cheap.  I've spent quite a few years dealing with the oil industry in Calgary, and no one takes to seriously if you don't walk large.  What I mean, is that it takes money to makes money.  If we send the GG overseas business class on Air Canada (using her own frequent flyer miles) and put her up in the skeez-is-us motel rented out by the hour, not too many foreign countries will take us very seriously.  A lot of countries will be more willing to increase/initiate trade if they're treated with the respect of a visit from the Head of State of a foreign country, and treated well by that sovereign leader.  PM PM is too busy, so let's fire off the GG.

Also, insofar as she is the CiC, the office of the GG needs to have the funding to support and perpetuate that role.  If only she'd threaten to remove PM PM if he doesn't start pouring money in to the Military...  Wouldn't that be fun.  ;D

T

 

[Boydfish]

Just to make an interesting point on the GG, the primary role of the job is not as "Canada's head of state", the GG is supposed to represent the Crown in the confederation.  This is extremely important.  It also makes the idea of the GG touring anywhere except the provinces foolish:  If she is not in the confederation, there is no way that she is representing the Crown in the confederation. 

The usual excuse offered is that she can be contacted in an emergency and execute her duties anywhere in the world via modern communications.  If this is true, why not just dump the position all together and have the Crown, read QEII, do this job via modern communications all the time?

If we must have a GG, rather than my preferred choice of simply disbanding the job and evolving the roles of the GG down to the provincial LGGs, then the GG should be held to remaining at thier assigned post, rather than galavanting around the planet, regardless of thier intentions.

 

[McInnes]

Boydfish, so you are saying that the PM should never leave Canada, as he represents Canada, and has no business galavanting around the planet as well then? Also, the GG IS our defacto head of state whether you like it or not.

A lot of you are beginning to remind me of school girls in highschool. It isn't necessary to refer to the whole lot of artists as snobs going on pointless trips around the world. Do you personally know each and every one of those artists? NO, so I strongly suggest you give your head a shake and perhaps stop in the rumour/slander mill.

The government is willing to waste 1 billion dollars on gun registry (read: pointless things to spend money on), and millions on the sponsorship scandal/liberal buddy fund. Yet, it is too much to spend 19 million on our head of state. Come on lads, if you're going to bitch about something, i think you could manage to find something with a little more impact. What of that multi-billion dollar surplus?

All of you as CF service persons have sworn to be faithful and bear true allegiance to HM. This also means the GG as HM representative in Canada. To publicly advocate the removal of the GG is a treasonous train of thought in my mind.

 

[NavyGrunt]

All of you as CF service persons have sworn to be faithful and bear true allegiance to HM. This also means the GG as HM representative in Canada. To publicly advocate the removal of the GG is a treasonous train of thought in my mind.

then she should be representing the Queen in Canada to the provinces  and not running around representing Canada to the world. We elect the PM and he should be doing this. Since we appoint him to lead and represent us. The GG represents the Queen to us. Not represent us to "them".

So because we waste larger amounts on something else we shouldnt worry about the small amounts we waste? Maybe you should give your head a shake?

I dont advocate the removal of the GG or HM from Canada- but I am interested to see a breakdown of her budget(the GG) and a breakdown of each of those trips-

 

[McInnes]

My point is that no one really seems to care how much the government wastes. However, as soon as the GG spends money, the drastically small amount in comparison, everyone is all up in arms. Also, the LGovs are responsible for representing the Queen to the Provinces not the GG. I think there is some confusion with the GG being our representative Head of State, and being the Queen's representative to us, as the GG has certain responsibilities to represent Canada to the world much like the President of the US is responsible for representing the US, or the Queen of Great Britain representing the UK.

The PM does represent Canada, however he is rather busy most of the time I gather, and serves a different function, so I think comparing the PM's duties with the GG in that regard is somewhat a moot point.

 

[Mortar guy]

OK, I'll make it easy for all of you who keep putting your feet in your mouthes:

What is the Governor General's position in Government?

Canada is a parliamentary democracy and a constitutional monarchy. This means Canadians recognize The Queen as our Head of State. Canada's 26th Governor General, the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson, carries out Her Majesty's duties in Canada on a daily basis and is Canada's de facto Head of State.

Like many other democracies, Canada has clearly defined the difference between the Head of State and Head of Government.

The Governor General

represents The Queen who is the Head of State
is appointed by The Queen on the advice of the Canadian Prime Minister
The Prime Minister

is the Head of Government
is the leader of the party with the most support in Parliament
What does the Governor General do?

The Governor General's role is built on six major themes:

Representing the Crown in Canada
Promoting Canadian Sovereignty
Celebrating Excellence
Encouraging National Identity, National Unity and Moral Leadership

Look on www.gg.ca if you want more info. For those who argue we should just let the Queen take over the role of GG, I say: you have just made my argument for me. If we can't even be bothered to spend $19 million on our HOS, then we might as well cede all sovereignty to the UK.

MG

 

[Michael Dorosh]

then she should be representing the Queen in Canada to the provinces  and not running around representing Canada to the world.  The GG represents the Queen to us. Not represent us to "them".

What on earth are you talking about?  We need the GG, at 19 million, to tour Canada and remind us we have a GG?  Your comments make little sense.

 

[big_castor]

If we must have a GG, rather than my preferred choice of simply disbanding the job and evolving the roles of the GG down to the provincial LGGs,

I think we could get rid of the Provincials Lieutenant-Governors and nobody would notice. 

 

[Boydfish]

Boydfish, so you are saying that the PM should never leave Canada, as he represents Canada, and has no business galavanting around the planet as well then?

The PM and the GG are different jobs.  The pivotal difference is that the PM's job is not to represent the Crown in the confederation, like the GG's is.

Also, the GG IS our defacto head of state whether you like it or not.

Do you know what "de facto" means?  In really boiled down terms, it means that Queen Elizabeth II is the head of state, but that the offices of the GG and the LGGs represent her in the confederation and in the provinces. 

I'll give you a micro-example: In my job, I am legally defined as a "delegate of the Deputy Attorney General".  I manage the case files, sign off on affadavits and execute lots of legal documents in that regard.  The DAG has met me once and could not pick me out of a police line up, along with the other 60 or so people who do the same job as me.  Just because I do all of his work as part of the law enforcement apparatus of British Columbia, while that gives me lots of de facto authority, doen't change the fact that at the end of the day, me worker drone, him big boss.

For those who argue we should just let the Queen take over the role of GG, I say: you have just made my argument for me. If we can't even be bothered to spend $19 million on our HOS, then we might as well cede all sovereignty to the UK.

Except that if you can make the arguement that modern technology allows the GG to trapse about the planet and still execute thier authority effectively, we could simply cut out the "middle man" and have the Crown do that.

What on earth are you talking about?  We need the GG, at 19 million, to tour Canada and remind us we have a GG?  Your comments make little sense.

The Queen is the head of the confederation.  She is also the head of state for each province.  The GG is her representative of the Crown in the confederation.  It is not her job to tour other lands and represent the Crown in Lower Lumpystan, it is her job to represent the Crown in the Canadian confederation.

Having her tour about would make as much sense as if the US Ambassador to Canada started touring Europe on behalf of EU-Canada relations.

 

[Boydfish]

I think we could get rid of the Provincials Lieutenant-Governors and nobody would notice.

Except that would effectively neuter the provincial governments.  Since the provinces make the confederation, not the other way around, it makes more sense to keep each province's government intact and trim out the GG instead.