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Our 'maybe' new recce vehicle

DG-41 said:
So while you won't catch me arguing for bigger vehicles over smaller ones, I totally don't buy that something Coyote-sized is unsuitable for the job.

In fact, given the choice between Coyote, or a fishbowl (even if the fishbowl is smaller) I'll take Coyote.

Having done Recce in a Coyote, I will argue against it.   It is large.   It is hard to hide.   It is a poor vehicle for Recce, with it's turret located two thirds of the way back on the hull.   It is hard to approach crests to look over, without exposing too much of the turret and vehicle in the process.   On Corners, the driver sees everything before anyone in the Turret, Gunner or Comd, and has the tendency for the whole vehicle to become exposed for the Comd to be able to see and/or employ his weapons. (Should the Comd now sit in the Drivers hole?  ;D )  It has limited cross country abilities (having used Tracks) and is quite noisy compared to a LAV III.  

It has a great Surv package and good sights in the turret.   It is a good Surv Veh.   It is not a Recce Veh.

As I said, the only large vehicle of this type that I would even consider for Recce is the Luchs.   Turret located to the front.   Drivers front and rear.   Transmission has just as many gears in Reverse as Forward, so no need to make 28 Point Turns to escape from a surprise Contact.

As you have pointed out, I too do not believe Recce can be done from inside an enclosed vehicle with large windows, air conditioning, etc.   The Crew Comd must be able to use all his senses; eyes, ears, smell, etc. to do his job.   This will rule out many of the vehicles being discussed here.
 
a_majoor said:
My bias towards a larger "Patrol Lav" is pretty firmly based on the "Trading Sabres for Stealth" paper, talking to Matt Fisher and reading about the experiences of the SBCTs in Iraq, understanding of recce from my side of the house and the desire to find an "in house" solution to the recce conumdrum. I realize there are lots of people who believe the LAV is too large (and it is a big vehicle to be sure), but size gives you some capabilities you don't get in the "Ferret scout car" analogues that have been proposed, and TTPs can be developed to work around some of the disadvantages of using a LAV. If I wanted to blue sky a bit, the AVGP Grizzley should undergo a total rebuild to become the patrol vehicle, since it has the internal volume for the four man dismounted patrolmen, and can get an updated powerpack, suspension, electonics and so on to give the mobility, protection and firepower we desire in a smaller package.

I will concede that you have some good points here.  I too would like to see these vehicles integrated into the Infantry and Armour Units.  The Infantry applications are as you stated, but these are more conducive to Assault Troops in an Armour organization, not Recce elements.

I would employ LAVs (pick any variant) in a Recce organization in the Assault Troops.  (Perferably the LAV Pioneer, or LAV Engineer, variants.)  I would not like to have the Recce Troops equipped with something that large.  (EDIT:  Just to clarify, I am not taking into account the Surv Troops in this statement.)
 
KevinB said:
In trying to encompasse Inffy's and Art's comments on the what - then then the how and why.
In my Infanteers mind (mine not that other guy's mind) recce task are done for a few reasons - but with the end state we wanted to know something about something we did not before.   To do that you need boots on the ground (in general terms I will admit rubber on pavement works for route stuff).

I gave up prepping for WWIII a long ago - at least as far as memorising the vehicle formations etc of tank divisions versus motorized rifle divisions.   And I still feel that prepping to overtake Europe is insane.   So looking at local conflicts that can escalate into Mid intensity - and extremely localised High Intensity activity.     So anything other than that we can dumb it down.

We need an armoured vehicle that offers increased crew surivivability - specifically a halon type fire supresion system, a robust fire control system able to engage both individual combatants up close, crowds in close, and effectively out range enemy armour or "technical" vehicles to further increase platform survivability.

Secondly it needs to be able to disgorge or carry a dismounted ability (sorry Tread Heads - unless driving down a road ATC;ing you need both a foot borne local protection element and eyes and ears working with black cadillac's)

OK

Now I see where our arguments are going.   We are on diverging paths.   Kev, as you stated, you, and others (non-Blackhatters), are looking at it from an Infantry point of view, while the Blackhatters are looking from the Armour Recce point of view.   Two completely different styles and types of Recce.

Overly simplified, the Infantry need an "Armoured Bus" to take their Recce Patrols out to their drop off points, and pick them up later, or provide a security factor from a hide, harbour or Fire Base.

The Armour need a vehicle that will take them long distances.   A vehicle that is small, offers good protection from small arms and shrapnel, is fast and quiet.   They do not need to lug around a bunch of 'dismounts' as they are conducting a much different type of Recce.  

Armour Recce needs a vehicle small enough that they can hide in areas permitting cover that vehicles like the LAV family can not hide in.  An example would be:  Can you fit a LAV into your garage at home?  We used to park our Lynx in people's garages, carports, barns, etc in towns and villages in Germany.  It is a lot more difficult with a Coyote to do the same thing, even in some treelines.   
Another case:  Driving down the 401 to Toronto, I have seen large culverts in which I could have parked a Lynx, but would be restricted to parking behind a berm with a Coyote. 
 
 
with it's turret located two thirds of the way back on the hull.  It is hard to approach crests to look over, without exposing too much of the turret and vehicle in the process.  On Corners, the driver sees everything before anyone in the Turret, Gunner or Comd, and has the tendency for the whole vehicle to become exposed for the Comd to be able to see and/or employ his weapons. (Should the Comd now sit in the Drivers hole?

Hm, that's an interesting point. As I mentioned, I've done Recce in Bison, and the crew commander's hole in Bison is way forward.

http://farnorthracing.com/armypics/43.jpg

So I didn't encounter those problems.

As far as mobility went, I felt that Bison was almost as capable as M113 (the only tracked vehicle I had recce experience in) and was WAY faster. There was one position I remember getting my carrier into that I probably couldn't have done in Bison without getting a good run at it... but I never felt mobility limited in Bison. Perhaps the extra weight of Coyote is the issue.

Perhaps a little noisy, but that was mostly exhaust note and could be fixed with a different muffler.

And I L-O-V-E-D the room inside a Bison. Give me a troop of Bison and I'd be a very happy camper.

As I said, the only large vehicle of this type that I would even consider for Recce is the Luchs.

Luchs is an interesting vehicle, and that German concept of the double-ended vehicle (that goes back to WW2) is clever and useful. I'd take that too.

On the other end of the spectrum... the PEIR had an operational Ferret, and I've crew commanded it on a couple of ceremonial and administrative occasions. I don't have a feel for its cross-country performance, but I've got a rough idea for what it would be like on-road. My take on it is that it was very, very cramped, with no room for all the gypsy caravan stuff we usually take with us on an extended op (including the observer!). I could see using it as a patrol vehicle out of a fixed home base, and I can see where the small size and low profile (plus the amazing sight lines) would be useful, but I think Ferret is too small.

So I guess that sets our upper and lower bounds on vehicle size, doesn't it?

To do that you need boots on the ground (in general terms I will admit rubber on pavement works for route stuff).

Well there's a lot more to it than that in the Armoured Recce case.

Mechanized formations can cover a lot of ground in a fairly short time. It is not unusual for a formation to pick up and move 500km-1000km in one day, especially if the move isn't resisted for most of its length. But as formations get larger, the amount of operational inertia they get gets larger as well. It takes time for orders to propegate and battle procedure to occur, such that there is a signifigant time lag in getting a large formation to start. stop, or change direction.

As a formation commander, if there are decision points in your plan, you need to know all the information you need in order to pick which branch of your decision tree you are going to follow BEFORE you enter into the time lag it takes to send that decision to all your subunits. So if it takes 6 hours from "make it so" to the lead callsigns of your force reacting to that order, then you need to get the information on the decision point *at least* 6 hours in advance, and preferably sooner so you can do some decent analysis of that information.

That means you need a sub-formation capable of scampering out to anywhere within your radius of operation, getting the information you need to make your decisions, and getting it back to you in time so that plans can be implemented based on that information.

The larger the formation, the longer the inertial time lag, and the more frontage you cover, so the more people you need to be able to cover the ground you need to know about.

That is Armoured recce's primary job - going forth well in advance of main formations and gathering the information the formation commander needs in order to carry out his plan.

Now as a side effect, the requirements of that job demand soldiers capable of moving, thinking, and reacting quickly - usually with little real-time guidence from higher formations - and with no support. That bred a generation of supremely flexible, adaptive, and creative soldiers capable of doing a lot more with limited resources than one would otherwise expect. That capability encouraged giving these units a lot of oddball other missions that were poor fits elsewhere but which recce soldiers could take in stride, such that recce's missions got very diverse. As well, clever commanders would make use of the fact that recce was operating so far ahead of his main body to influence the battle in the far distance, and recce was very good at improv. But the other side effect of all this was that nobody outside of recce and formation headquarters ever saw any of this happening, because recce was so far forward.

As we push combined arms operations (and perhaps more importantly, the independant command of combined arms operations) into smaller and smaller formations, we are pushing the need for integral Armoured Recce into smaller and smaller formations, and exposing commanders to recce and their mission earlier in their careers than would otherwise be the case. This seems to be causing some confusion, because nobody seems to be explaining to anybody exactly what recce brings to them before (I guess) Staff College.

The Armoured recce mission shares some techniques and tactics with Infantry recce, and sometimes we do things (that flexibility thing again) that Infantry recce would be completely capable of doing. But we'd do things on the way to that mission, and on the way back from that mission, which are completely outside of the Infantry recce idiom.

When you talk about "boots on the ground" I hear SLOW (and thus CLOSE, because distance and time are the same thing)

DG

 
DG-41, if you liked the Bison how would you feel about the Bison without the hull roof, basically the same height as the Grizzly (about 1.85m or 6 feet)?
 
As I recall, we spent most of the time with the cargo doors open and the observer out that hatch. The air sentry hatches at the tail end are at the long end of a lever arm with the fulcrum at the suspension, and had a way of catapulting lightweight observers into the air (and almost clear of the vehicle!) when moving cross country.

So that summerizes how we used it.

But I'd want the ability to close the roof, as per Bison, in case of bad weather or incoming mortars, grenades, etc.

DG
 
George and DG, I was attempting to blend the recce units - into a method of having Engineer, Armoured and Inf recce blended into a single unit with all present -- I feel this is how ISTAR will end up.
Rationale for my thoughts are that if you have this ISTAR coy doing its thing for the Bde G2 cell , is it not easier to make a bunch of similar subunits that can all complete ALL the tasks that might be assigned to it -- I worked DIV Arty during RV92 and I saw what a complete jugfuck that certain things became when the unit in question attempted to do something it was unsuited for simply due to the fact it was the only one in the area.

Now if we intergrate the recce systems if 63B gets to a site and finds it has to do a bridge recce and scout the surroundign village as well - the Armd crew will have gotten then there - the Eng Sgt can do his bridge stuff and the 031's can muck about the village.
Despite a lot of Armd Recce guys feeling they can do the job of 031 mud recce - they cannot - the same way a 031 LAV/Coyote crew will never do the job of a blackhat crew - experience and training.

I do feel that we do need a light vehicle as well - but I feel the Chenowith Racing DPV fills the bill for a fastlight system with some teeth.
 
Kev

I see what you are trying to do, and am arguing against it.  I see the Armd and Inf Recce guys as being completely different animals.  By blending them, we are diluting them even further. 

Armd guys do do Bridge Recces in their Route Recces.  Engr elements are miles behind and will confirm any such Recces should the Bde decide to take that route in its' advance. 

I think we are starting to wind ourselves around an axle trying to pick an all singing, all dancing vehicle for everyone's Recce Vehicle, when we should concentrate on a Veh for Armd Recce, another for Infantry Recce, and a specialized one for Engr Recce.  In the end, should a task require an Engr Recce element to accompany an Armd or Inf Recce Pl/Troop, they will have the proper tools to perform the job.

For Infantry, Armd and Engineer guys to argue amongst with each other over what is the "only" vehicle and what it must do for Recce is turning into a Juliet Foxtrot.
 
George, I see your point about "all singing, all dancing", and I will concede there are technical issues that make using a "Patrol LAV" difficult, but I am having a bit of a conceptual issue here.

IF we get a 21rst century "Ferret", there is almost no room for an observer and little for sustainment kit to keep going for 72 or 96 hours. As well, the scout car can go fast, hide in a ditch and do all the other great things, but in the lower end of the spectrum, it isn't "user friendly", and in the higher end, survivability becomes something of an issue (although if they really want to get you, they will find a way regardless of your platform).

IF we stipulate a LAV or Coyote is too large and has an inefficient layout, then we should write the actual requirments and see where we go from there. I would like a vehicle with a protected volume sufficient to carry a three man crew plus "some" dismounted troops, as well as sustainment supplies for a 96 hour mission. Protection against small arms, mines and shell fragments, and sufficient firepower to defeat enemy technicals, improvised bunkers and light armour. Wheeled mobility to support a road march at speeds of up to 100kph, and a 400km unrefulled range, as well as a reasonable level of cross country mobility. Inclusion of things like a surveillance periscope or a TI with some pretty high powered optics would be nice to have, but probably not essential (or are they?).

This should give us a starting point, have the speed and mobility to get where we are going for that 6+ hour window of advanced information, meet the "Full Spectrum Ops" requirments to go up and down the scale of conflict and still be useful in high intensity ops where the light recce concept has been shown to fail. Now all we need to do is find the vehicle to match.....
 
Well, I have mentioned rebuilding the Lynx before, by removing the engine and replacing it with a small MTU powerpack (like the Leopards) thus freeing up the front Diff Compartment for another Fuel Cell and doubling it's road range out to 1200 Km.  That would also free up room in the Crew Compartment by removing the Pillow box and Prop Shaft Housing.  Upgrade the Gunnery and Electronics.  Add some basic Surv Kit and away we go.  Redesigning a vehicle of this size would probably do, but there are already vehicles on the market of this type that could be bought off the shelf. 

In the old days our Lynx would be filled to the ceiling with kit.  The Observers had to remove their seats and would use two cases of C Rats instead.  There is also external stowage like the Americans are seen to be doing in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I would prefer my kit to stay on the vehicle and not be torn off going through a tight alley or tree line or used as "Reactive Armour"  ;D .

We have been kicking around a lot of ideas on this thread.
 
What about the idea of taking the upgraded non-stretch M113/TLAV and putting a Delco/GDLS LAV-25 turret, or 25mm Remote Weapons Station on it, and an applique armor package for wartime?   You'd then have a vehicle that has a low profile, adequate protection level, decent mobility and enough room in the back for between 2 and 4 dismounts or a surv. suite and it'd be relatively cheap to do, considering the amount of surplus M113s out there.
 
Matt_Fisher said:
What about the idea of taking the upgraded non-stretch M113/TLAV and putting the LAV-25 turret on it?   You'd then have a vehicle that has a low profile, decent mobility and enough room in the back for between 2 and 4 dismounts or a surv. suite.
I saw trials on that back in the '80s.  It seemed a bit top heavy.  Never did hear any real feedback on that one, other than it got dropped.  I think there was even thought of putting something on the lower Lynx chassis.  Of course we then came out with ADATS and put it on a M113 bed.

Problems with the old M113 family (Includes the Lynx) was the straight exhaust provided a large 'signature' cloud and was unmuffled.  If you haven't notice, the LAV III, and probably the Stryker family, are much quiter and have better exhausts than Coyotes.  Their exhaust is also shielded a bit better to hide the Thermal signatures.  A problem that new designs are overcoming.
 
All these ideas suffer from a fatal flaw though - they be tracked, not wheeled.

I'm not saying I agree with that... but the reality is that we won't be getting anything with tracks on it for a loooong time.

DG
 
Been eating too much out of those aluminium Mess tins.....forgot again.

Brings us back to the larger version of the Ferret, the Fox.  The German Fox; the Fuchs.  The French VLB.  The Fennek.  The Puma (wheeled version). 
 
I remember seeing pics of the M113 with the Bradley turret that the CFs were trialing in the 80's as a potential infantry fighting vehicle to replace/augment the existing M113s and Grizzlies.   I actually saw the test version in the Trials & Evaluations compound in Gagetown in 1996.   I think that at that time, United Defense hadn't worked out the upgraded engine and transmission as well as 'stretch' package, thus the vehicle was regarded as far too underpowered and too small to be of any use for the infantry and the Armoured Corps never considered it as a replacement for the Lynx, which was the recce. vehicle in service at the time.
 
Matt_Fisher said:
the Armoured Corps never considered it as a replacement for the Lynx, which was the recce. vehicle in service at the time.

The Lynx was, in fact, gone by then. I was at the school as a dvr and we were using the 113 for all non-Leo realted training back at that time.

I don't believe that the Armoured Corps ever seriously considered the 113 as anything more than a stop-gap until we could get a new veh to replace them.

I think all eyes were focused on the Coyote even back then...

Cheers

Slim
 
Just a question - irregardless of vehicle selected, how will "Armoured Recce" be gathering information?
 
Infanteer said:
Just a question - irregardless of vehicle selected, how will "Armoured Recce" be gathering information?

Well as things stand right now there are two ways its being done.

One is stand off electronic surveillance, the other is the old fashioned 'Recce By Stealth"
 
Infanteer said:
Just a question - irregardless of vehicle selected, how will "Armoured Recce" be gathering information?
If you picked Armour for an MOC, you'll find out.....  ;D
 
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