- Reaction score
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- Points
- 880
The CAF needs less hand holding, not more... agree with everything said by Kat Stevens, Jim Seggie etc.
We need to get out of the mentality of babysitting soldiers in every aspect of their life. Sometimes I feel people are expecting a form of uniformed welfare.
We need to get out of the mentality of babysitting soldiers in every aspect of their life. Sometimes I feel people are expecting a form of uniformed welfare.
- Reaction score
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- Points
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I concur the army wants to tell us what to do, and the politicians want to think for us...
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- 22,114
- Points
- 1,090
Spectrum said:
We do need to ensure the institution practices what it preaches, and have CF issued meals be healthy. Sticking soft drink and Jos Louis into box lunches does not align with "healthy eating".
- Reaction score
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- Points
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MrBlue said:
Point 1 - Jim has "been there and done that ..... and then some," so don't really know what your getting at. I understand what Jim is saying and you are taking it out of context.
Point 2 - Powerlifting can be useful but is of limited use if you do not combine it with some sort of cardiovascular fitness with a mix of aerobic/anerobic. I am convinced that the best training a soldier can do is lots of walking with weight and running combined with bodyweight exercises and dynamic movements i.e. rope climbing, obstacle courses, picking heavy things up like tires, sledgehammer PT etc...
Point 3 - I don't think the CF needs to focus on anything, we need to focus on what soldiers do which at its core is march places with considerable weights with the end state of being able to move, shoot, communicate effectively. I think we need to become a little more austere with our training. We need to make 12 miler humps a standard component of our training. We need to train guys to be self-sufficient and the less resources they consume (food, water, ammunition, fuel, etc) fighting the battle, the better off we will be. The list really goes on and on, really the core component of this is taking soldiers out of their comfort zones.
Point 4 - I completely agree with you, I am personally in favour of getting rid of all shit food we serve at our messes, not serving garbage at lunches in our canteens, etc...
OldSolduer
Army.ca Relic
- Reaction score
- 12,477
- Points
- 1,140
When I was a Section Commander I was rarely allowed to conduct PT as a section. Instead, the Pl Comd got to conduct PT and it seemed to be "run run run".
Infantry Section Commanders need to be allowed some freedom to conduct some Section PT, for instance:
Cardiovascular - section attacks with kit are physically demanding therefore activities such as "manmakers", wind sprints etc are necessary.
Having said this, they need firm direction, a plan and supersvision by the Chain of Command.
Infantry Section Commanders need to be allowed some freedom to conduct some Section PT, for instance:
Cardiovascular - section attacks with kit are physically demanding therefore activities such as "manmakers", wind sprints etc are necessary.
Having said this, they need firm direction, a plan and supersvision by the Chain of Command.
- Reaction score
- 9,100
- Points
- 1,360
Jim Seggie said:
Agree completely Jim, I also think we need to start focusing more on combining PT with soldier skills. Give you an example from when I was a Pl Comd:
Usually once a week I would run a PT session where I would try to involve some form of military skill(s) in the session. It would be physically exerting but would be Sect Comd driven.
I used to run PT sessions every couple of weeks that would involve some form of IBTS trg at the Sect level. During these every member of the Pl would have a patrol pack with a sandbag in it, we would run a few kilometers to an RV. I wouldn't tell my soldiers what we would be doing but I would tell the Sect Comd to have a pen and paper on him and some kit with them (Panel markers, first aid kit, etc). Upon arriving at our RV I would issue the Sect Comd with a set of frag orders with a quick scenario, mission, concepts of ops & coord instructions. He would then be tasked with taking his Sect and executing the mission.
What these missions would entail: I would usually pre-place a bunch of equipment at the RV. For instance one mission/scenario I gave them would be something like this: "friendly forces have suffered a casualty, their is a tentative LZ located at XXXXX, you must get your casualty to XXXXX, mark and est an LZ and effectively EVAC the casualty". The casualty would be a stretcher with 3x20L Jerry Cans taped to it and each Sect would have one of these improvised "casualties". I would then turn it over to them and have them conduct their drills. Sect Comd would be in charge of getting the casualty to a location I gave him and accomplishing all the tasks. He would have to manage his soldiers as they moved the casualty so if guys were getting tired he would rotate them. He also had a timing so he knew how much time he had to do it in, sometimes the distances for these events we did would be fairly long (4-5km to move a stretcher with a lot of weight on it). I would jump in with a Sect and do the event with them under command of the Sect Comd.
Once we got to the tentative LZ the Sect Comd would have to secure the LZ and I would have him backbrief me quickly on how he would do it. All the soldiers would go through the drills as if it were the real thing (deploying panel markers, if I said it was night using a buzzsaw, etc). We would then practice calling out the Nine-Liner. Sometimes we would do it together and other times I would have the Sect Comd test his guys out on it. Sometimes I would say the LZ is compromised chopper can't land here we have to get the casualty to a new spot and we would move it.
We managed to practice all these skills while also getting an incredibly good workout. I actually got some of these ideas by watching the military channel believe it or not. I think the point I am trying to make though is you can do PT that is a good workout and a lot of fun while simultaneously training your guys to do soldier stuff. This sort of thing also empowers your Sect Comd's and allows them to actually get out and lead their men. Oh and the guys really enjoy seeing the Pl Comd getting absolutely bagged carrying a stretcher and his 80lb sandbag patrol pack with them
- Reaction score
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- Points
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When I was at 3vp section pt was often the norm, if not the platoon varied it. Often letting privates lead a pt as long as it was approved. (privates with mods 1-5) We ran on Fridays whether it was as a company or platoon. With the odd run during the week. Crossfit has largely made itself part of 3VPs diet.
- Reaction score
- 2
- Points
- 230
That's a great paternalistic idea - except it wouldn't work since it is based on self-reports. You'd be amazed at how many folks in our organization eat nothing but fruit, brussel sprouts and granola! Not to mention that it is overly intrusive.Cadwr said:
Diet is a large part of the work. Much more than I expected. Some of the messes serve deep fried crap and processed junk. Hard to make healthy choices. Pet was particularly bad. I'd advise getting some protein powder and All Greens to get some proper muscle gains. A gram of protein per pound of lean body mass and you will grow like a weed. Not eating bread helped me make some serious fitness gains too. Your mileage will vary.
But on the other hand learning to live off of crap is a good skill to have under many conditions.
But on the other hand learning to live off of crap is a good skill to have under many conditions.
- Reaction score
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- Points
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RoyalDrew said:
Point 2 wasn't me espousing the greatness of powerlifting training for the military carryover. I was just pointing out/correcting the usage, and to clear up that not all strong/powerlifters are useless soldiers. I agree that powerlifting alone is not the best way of training for the military, BUT that being said many people have shown you can be strong (powerlifter level) AND also do marathons/triathlons if you're into that. If we're talking strictly about PT that has carryover to the military I think it gets a little more complicated depending on what your trade and element are. Army wise generally speaking long walks with weight, sprints, bodyweight movements and/or strength training for high reps. Playing devil's advocate though, the PT needs/requirements of an infanteer will be slightly different then an artilleryman, armoured and vehicle tech, in terms of day to day on the job needs. Agree on tire flips, sledgehammer, odd lifting, etc...
Point 3, you start off saying CF shouldn't focus on anything then say it should focus on X, slightly confused...the problem with your recommendation is doing a 12 mile hump (roughly 19km) would take far longer then authorised PT times. Non combat arms units do not have the time for 3-4 hours PT in 1 day on a regular basis. They are fighting to just keep their 1 hour a day. Even if they were allowed do you know how little work would get done, clothing stores would only be open for 2-3hrs a day, vehicles would be getting fixed very slowly, etc...
Point 4 Getting rid of crap food in the messes is about all we can do, but even that would be a huge step! what I meant by couldn't enforce, is that the MPs wouldn't be busting down doors because members aren't eating enough veggies. The CF could not enforce any food restrictions when members are at home on their own time. Which is good because we all have different dietary preferences (aka vegans, vegatarians, kosher, etc) I do think education as someone else pointed out would be a step in the right direction, since many people are nutrionally dumb.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 230
MrBlue said:
I completely agree with point 3 and point 4.
If you have STRONGER soldiers, and by strong I mean lifitng heavy, able to carry more, do more, those soldiers get fatigued at a far slower rate then a "runner" or someone with leader legs when doing the actual job of a soldier.
Just completing a PLQ-A doing said section attacks, recces, stab ops, platoon attacks, defensive ops, the people that you could see that they lifted weights regularly were in far better mental and physical shape as the exercises went on (all walks of life, reg F, Res, Combat arms, CSS trades) . Guess who were the ones that were packing/strapping that SF kit, Ammo boxes, water and food onto their rucks, small packs etc and carrying them in their hands along with their pers ex kit, not the runners. It was the people that lifted weights, did crossfit, something to increase their physical strength. Those people became the work horses and pack mules of their sections, doing 95% of the digging, 95% of the lifting/carrying. Furthermore, as the days went on and the runners that relied more and more on those fresh green veggies, that wide variety of fresh fruit, they started visiting shut'erdown.com, meanwhile those people that bodies were used to eating/consuming high amounts of meats, proteins, and calories etc continued to be able to power through with the food in the IMPS. It appeared that the Lifters bodies had much more endurance and a faster recovery rate when lifting and physical labour is involved, and where still able to think straight after they hallucinated that a tree was a transformer etc.
This is not an anti running by any means, I understand the necessity for running, however I fully believe that we should have less emphasis on the running. It is an easy way out and less organization required for PT. Set up ccts, and I dont mean those 10lb black foam covered bar PSP ccts, i mean an actualy lifting cct with benches plates etc.
If I could remember the name of the article I had read several months ago, it had actually reviewed a study that weightlifters live longer, have healthier hearts.
As for the food comment, have a look at canteens all across the military, (fat pills, choc bars, energy drinks, dried meats packed with sodium, chips pop and coffee) how often do you see fruits, good nuts (not the shit planters super sodium ones) etc. never. look at the messes, they do the best they can, however, money just isnt there.
medicineman
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 3,791
- Points
- 1,110
CombatDoc said:
When I do home BP or blood sugar monitoring on my civvy patients, I just tell them to show me the raw data...because I've found that people will try to please you and give you that they think you want to see. I no longer tell people what the "normals" are - they'll ask what things should be at so that they can put that number down with little variation.
Weight/size ratio (BMI for a lack of better terms) in general is a bigger issue than a lot of folks really get - especially to those that don't have to lift and carry some of these behemoths you see around. Hollywood perceptions of what a soldier should look like and the reality in my mind are a lot different - soldiers should be fairly wiry, not honking huge bodybuilders. Most US Marines I've dealt with were lean, wiry guys - the huge honking ones were usually the Force Recon or Special Ops guys. Try getting someone like that out of a LAV or Coyote turret - you need to grease the cupola rings to get some of these folks out safely (for both yourself and them), or in the case of a sailor, getting them up out of the bowels of an engine room to the hangar deck...the people doing the rescuing are going to get injured as well as possibly injuring the rescuee even more.
Everything in military medicine comes down to these basic questions - "Are you an actual/potential health risk to yourself?" and "Are you an actual/potential health risk to others?". If the answer is yes to one or more, Houston, we have a problem...
As for the long boring runs, I read an interesting study that compared how the US, UK, Canada and Israel prepared soldiers aerobically in training...the first three used running as their base and the Israelis used progressive load bearing marching. No surprise that running will increase your aerobic capacity faster, but often at the expense of injuries. The load bearing walking increased the capacity at a modestly slower rate, with fewer injuries and was generally considered more functionally related to what the end state was required of someone as a soldier. In all likelihood, some of the walking progressed to something faster, as you do need to be able to run quickly with gear...which is why the Army Fitness Test included a 400m dash as well as the 2.4km run in it (though bare assed of course).
MM
- Reaction score
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- Points
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Kat Stevens said:
Yup, I'm with you. I don't see a *need* for supervised PT any more than I see a *need* for supervised eating. (That last one sounds so ridiculous when you actually say it.)
Unless you demonstrate that you are defficient in one of these areas.
In which case, one of the standard "consequences" might be an appropriate engagement with someone who can help you determine how to overcome those defficiencies. Whether that's a PT plan (supervised or not) or a healthy eating plan (an hour with the nutritionist - I am sure we employ these people for a reason? And yes, they will ask you to write down everything you eat - and if you lie to them, then you have a character defficency compounding your health problems, and you'll find the door all the sooner.)
I see both as a potentially good option for helping soldiers to overcome a defficiency realted to healthy body weight. At the very least, the latter ensures that they have the education required to make healthy choices.
I never meant to insinuate that everyone needs to have their hands held - not at all. Just that those who are falling behind should at least be given an opportunity to catch up, and one that addresses the entire scope of the defficiency, both nutrition and PT. Once we are certain that they have those tools - well - these are grown men making what we are now certain are informed choices. Bring on the rest of the consequences.
We are after all an institution that spends more than a few hours teaching grown men and women how to dress themselves - a few hours learning how to eat properly doesn't seem that far fetched, does it?
(Maybe I'm way off base. It wouldn't be the first time.)
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
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New plan
http://youtu.be/d76CwsWbV2E
http://youtu.be/d76CwsWbV2E
- Reaction score
- 2,535
- Points
- 1,260
In a related development ....
National Post/Postmedia News, 18 Sept 13
