Paid off vs Decommissioning split -HMCS Fraser looking for interested volunteers

[armyvern]

"Paying off" is there and is included in the definition of "disbandment", but I don't see the word "decommission" anywhere in that order.

No you don't see the word "decommissioning" there. That's precisely because that CFAO 27-9 (Disposal of Non-Public Property) is about the "Disposal" process NOT the "decomissioning" process. They are two seperate things.

"Paying off" = "Disposal Process" = the act of divesting the item from the property of The Crown.

Things can be decommissioned (or in the case of Units - disbanded), but don't necessarily go on to be "payed off". This ship was "payed off" when it was divested from the Property of The Crown. The CAR, for example (being a Unit, not a physical item) was disbanded, but was not "payed off" as it was never divested from Crown property.

If a ship were Decomissioned (ie removed/retired from active service), it could then stay in our inventory for years. It is not until it is handed over to the CDS for disposal from Crown Property assets that it is "payed off".

 

[Neill McKay]

"Paying off" = "Disposal Process" = the act of divesting the item from the property of The Crown.  Things can be decommissioned (or in the case of Units - disbanded), but don't necessarily go on to be "payed off". This ship was "payed off" when it was divested from the Property of The Crown.

CFAO 27-9 shows that "paying off" (of a ship) = "disbandment", not necessarily "disposal":

"DISBANDMENT

    includes paying off a ship;"

If a ship were Decomissioned (ie removed/retired from active service), it could then stay in our inventory for years. It is not until it is handed over to the CDS for disposal from Crown Property assets that it is "payed off".

I'm sorry, I'm just not getting that from the CFAO.  You're completely correct that a ship can be out of commission but still the property of the Crown: as far as I know there are still several steamers and OBERON-class submarines in just that state alongside the Dockyard Annex in Dartmouth.  But I would say that those ships were paid off.  (This is the situation from which we get the expression "paid off into reserve".)

 

[armyvern]

CFAO 27-9 IS DISPOSAL (LOOK at the CFAO Title) how can it "not necessarily be disposal" ??

IE = The ridding of the property from Crown Assets (that's disposal as explained in CFAO 27-9 Disposal of Non-Public Property

That's where "Paying off" falls into the process.

Not in the retiring process, not in the rendering 'obsolete' process, not in the Decomissioning Process -- but in the Disposal Process.

 

[Neill McKay]

My read of the CFAO is that "disbanding" is synonymous with "paying off".  Nowhere do I see paying off described as a later process to be completed after first disbanding the unit, nor do I see decommissioning defined as being the same as disbanding -- or even mentioned.

This is all tangential anyway: the CFAO discusses the disposal of non-public property so has nothing to do with the disposal, paying off, or decommissioning of the ship itself (i.e. the hull and machinery).  It does address what to do with a plaque given to the ship by its affiliated sea cadet corps, but says nothing about how to sell the ship to the company that will turn it into razor blades.

 

[armyvern]

Of course decommissionning is NOT mentionned in that CFAO ...

because that CFAO is about DISPOSAL not decommissioning.

You need to review the official CF definitions of terminology.

Disposal = Disposal from crown Assets.

And no, the CFAO doesn't tell you how to "dispose" of the actual item ... that's (the details of write-off etc and steps to removing from charge) in the Supply manual for us Sup Techs to look after ... at R&D (Repair & DISPOSAL) section. We declare any assets being divested from Crown property (ie DISPOSED) to CADC who handles the turn over to the non-Crown entity -- be that for razor blades, scrap metal, surplus stores ... whatever. Just as we declare vehicles (ie Iltis') for DISPOSAL action ... (ie sold as vehicle, sold for scrap etc etc) but OUT of the Crown's posession.

 

[Neill McKay]

Of course decommissionning is NOT mentionned in that CFAO ...

because that CFAO is about DISPOSAL not decommissioning.

You need to review the official CF definitions of terminology.

Disposal = Disposal from crown Assets.

And no, the CFAO doesn't tell you how to "dispose" of the actual item ... that's (the details of write-off etc and steps to removing from charge) in the Supply manual for us Sup Techs to look after ... at R&D (Repair & DISPOSAL) section. We declare any assets being divested from Crown property (ie DISPOSED) to CADC who handles the turn over to the non-Crown entity -- be that for razor blades, scrap metal, surplus stores ... whatever. Just as we declare vehicles (ie Iltis') for DISPOSAL action ... (ie sold as vehicle, sold for scrap etc etc) but OUT of the Crown's posession.

All of which leaves me wondering why you raised CFAO 27-9 in the first place to support an argument that decommissioning a ship is somehow different from paying it off.  I've seen nothing in this thread to indicate that they are anything but synonymous, which takes us pretty well back to square one.

 

[armyvern]

All of which leaves me wondering why you raised CFAO 27-9 in the first place to support an argument that decommissioning a ship is somehow different from paying it off.  I've seen nothing in this thread to indicate that they are anything but synonymous, which takes us pretty well back to square one.

Think of it this way:

An Officer screws up and has his commission removed ...

We have "decommissioned" the Officer. We have removed him from service as a commissioned officer, but he is still a part of the service (ie an Asset of the Crown). Ergo he has been decommissioned, but he has not been "payed off".

An Officer screws up and has his commission removed AND is booted from the CF ...

We have "decommissioned" the Officer and THEN (then being a SEPERATE ACT following the "decommission") we "Payed Off" the member in removing him from CF inventory (ie booted his butt)  ... as in he is NO LONGER a CROWN asset, but rather has been "disposed" of.

A Ship can be decommissioned (that is the act of retiring it from active service). It can then sit dockside for many years and still remain a crown asset. When we divest that Ship FROM our inventory (owned Crown assets) that is when it is "payed off".

It is entirely possible for a Ship being decommissioned to carry a "Paying Off" pennant. That means that the ship is being (Process 1) Decommissioned (Retired from Active Duty) and then (Process 2) "Payed Off" (Disposed from inventory) via being immediately handed over to CDS for Disposal from the Crown Property listing.

They are two seperate process'. It is possible that "Paying off" (disposal of the asset from Crown property) does not occur until years after it has been Decommissioned (removed from active duty).

Two seperate things.

 

[Neill McKay]

A Ship can be decommissioned (that is the act of retiring it from active service). It can then sit dockside for many years and still remain a crown asset. When we divest that Ship FROM our inventory (owned Crown assets) that is when it is "payed off".

I understand that to be your position, but I haven't seen anything to convince me that you're correct that the paying-off of the ship occurs when the ship is finally sold.  I'm open to being convinced but I'm not there yet.

 

[armyvern]

I understand that to be your position, but I haven't seen anything to convince me that you're correct that the paying-off of the ship occurs when the ship is finally sold.  I'm open to being convinced but I'm not there yet.

No, I'm quite done with you actually. And, quite frankly, I don't give a shit where you are. My job doesn't entail "convincing" you. My job just entails doing my job.

Don't bother looking up those official CF terms by yourself now like I advised earlier ... I wouldn't want to have to spoon feed you.

Do that yourself.

BTW, you can also find the Supply Manual on-line -- I suggest that you give it a gander too, you need it.

                                                                                                                                         

                       Look down, there's the report button right there below this glowing yellow ---> .

 

[Harley Sailor]

WOW, a bit touchy...Cool

 

[geo]

Don't mess with the Coppertops :tsktsk:

 

[Neill McKay]

No, I'm quite done with you actually. And, quite frankly, I don't give a crap where you are. My job doesn't entail "convincing" you. My job just entails doing my job.

Don't bother looking up those official CF terms by yourself now like I advised earlier ... I wouldn't want to have to spoon feed you.

Do that yourself.

BTW, you can also find the Supply Manual on-line -- I suggest that you give it a gander too, you need it.

                                                                                                                                       

                      Look down, there's the report button right there below this glowing yellow ---> .

Is it not possible for two people to discuss differing beliefs without it coming to this?

 

[armyvern]

Is it not possible for two people to discuss differing beliefs without it coming to this?

My job entails my sticking to "official policy and terms" as directed in QR&Os, CFAOs, Sup Manual, DAODs, TB Regulations etc etc ...

"Beliefs" don't matter, CF definitions do.

 

[geo]

One should take into consideration that the english language (and all others) changes with time.  Some words become obsolete while others will end up meaning something completely different from it's original intent.

As Vern & I have pointed out.... Decommissioned is the removal of a commissioned ship from the rolls while Paid off is the removal of the asset from crown property's list of things it has.

HMS Upholder was DECOMMISSIONED from the RN at the time it was mothballed.  When it changed hands - from UK to CA - it was Paid off.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Is this a new version of "Paid off"? Some sort of administrative accounting term?

 

[geo]

Heh... I'm Combat Arms....

Paid off to me is what I do to settle my Bar tab at the end of the night

 

[CountDC]

Well according to forces.gc.ca (that'd be the official CF site I think) ...

HMCS ships are "decommissioned" (see term used at para 3 of link)

This is merely an article most likely written by some PAFFO using what they assumed was the correct term who had watched too many US movies.

Attachment included below details the "The CF Ship Decommissioning Process".

?? Where - don't see anything in regards to Decommissioning??

Attached here is the link to the CFAO regarding the "paying off" of CF assets. It seems to me that the Ship itself is "decommissioned" (read Unit "disbanded" in the CFAO). After it is decommissioned it is then "payed off" in that the asset then moves from the Old Man to the CDS for disposal purposes.

Unit Disbanded refers to paying off of ship not decommissioned.

CFAO 27-9 DISPOSAL OF NON-PUBLIC PROPERTY

Ergo, the "paying off" of the ship is it's handover to the disposal process.

It's actual "retirement from service" -- is it's decommissioning.

In speaking with LCdr here that has extensive experience with this he explained as thus:

The correct term for the Canadian Navy is paying off the same as the British use as we are closely based on them.  The US Navy however uses Commission and Decommission thus these terms are more often heard by people in the news, movies, shows so they have started to use them when referring to Canadian Ships.  In actual fact they are the same thing just that one is Canadian/British and the other US termonolgy. 

Also ships that are Payed Off are not always scrapped or sold - they may be mothballed and if needed/desired could be placed back into active service. See MARCORD 40-01  here:   http://navy.dwan.dnd.ca/english/marcords/v1/40-01.asp released by the OPI DMPOR 4 in Apr 08 and MARCORD G-23  http://navy.dwan.dnd.ca/english/marcords/v2/G-23.asp also released by the OPI DMPOR 4 in Jan 08. You will not find the term decommission there.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The Royal Australian Navy also uses the term ' decommissioned'

http://www.anmm.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=163
Venture into the secret world of submarine warfare on board HMAS Onslow, one of the Royal Australian Navy's Oberon class submarines now superseded by the Collins class. Decommissioned in 1999, just weeks before coming to the museum, this boat is complete and is close to operational condition.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

And from the ROYAL NAVY website:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.1278

After 3 commissions Invincible was decommissioned from her third in August 2005, as her period of operational tasking ended.

.......but not being a sailor, nor overly interested why some get so worked up over the simple use of a term, I shall retire, decommission as it were, from the conversation. However, I would much rather be paid off

 

[Sub_Guy]

.......but not being a sailor, nor overly interested why some get so worked up over the simple use of a term, I shall retire, decommission as it were, from the conversation. However, I would much rather be paid off

Its a Navy thing, I noticed some like to get worked up over certain terms.  I would say things to intentionally get certain people going.

"I am going downstairs"  would always ensure a lecture about proper naval terms.

Decommissioned vs Paid Off.... Who gives a damn?